Sambo Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 Hello all I am new to this forum.I have a Carioca 5 Motorhome.Last month when I went to check my van out which was parked on my drive,I was confronted by a scene of devastion in the front cab.My first thought was vandals had got in and trashed the front compartment,but after a closer inspection I noticed the leisure battery had blown up.It was quite a shock,after clearing the mess & acid up I bought a new battery & fitted it.The problem I now have is this, the unit above the door is a NORDELETTRONICA NE 101 C the light for the leisure battery "10" on the diagram keeps flashing as though the battery is flat I have charged it to full but its still doing it.Is there any way to reset the panel ? Any help will be most welcome,Regards Sam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camocam1 Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 Can't help you there but have you found out WHY the Leisure Battery Exploded ???? Don't want it to happen again !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sambo Posted March 12, 2013 Author Share Posted March 12, 2013 Not yet,Camocam1 :'( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terryW Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 My first concern is your safety, batteries don't explode without help and your replacement has been connected back to the probable cause. I would say you are in danger of the next battery exploding and I just hope you are not in the vicinity!!! Given the danger I would seek assistance from a qualified/experienced electrical engineer. Your safety is not worth the money you may save by fault finding yourself. BE SAFE :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spospe Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 Sam I would get the control panel checked out before connecting it again, because it seems at a first reading that it may well be the cause of your problem. Batteries do not explode for no reason and the most likely explanation is overcharging giving rise to excess gassing. A 'blown up' leisure battery will have sprayed acid everywhere and unless you have caught the event within seconds of it happening, the acid will by now have caused considerable damage (fabric will fall to bits within a week of being sprayed). Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sambo Posted March 12, 2013 Author Share Posted March 12, 2013 The battery is NOT connected Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sambo Posted March 12, 2013 Author Share Posted March 12, 2013 I will thanks spospe :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Collings Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 I agree with everything said so far. Other points/ Even if gassing takes place the fumes should have been vented to the outside. usually there is a small bore tube from the battery taken out doors. It no good relying on the normal gas drops as as unlike heavier than air LPG, lighter than air hydrogen rises and can gather like a bubble in a confined space. To explode any gas takes a spark or flame. A switch contacts operating can be enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 I think you are looking for two things. First the fuel for the "explosion". Second the source of ignition. For the first, I would suggest hydrogen. Your mention of acid suggests that this was a conventional wet cell, or "flooded", battery. Hydrogen build up should not have been possible, because such batteries should be externally vented. It seems probable it was not. This suggests either a serious omission when it was installed, or that it has been changed from an alternative battery type. The source of ignition could well have been the main fuse, which would be in the battery enclosure close to the battery + terminal. It would spark as it blew, so igniting any hydrogen around it, which would flash across to that within the battery casing, which would then burst violently apart. Overcharging would cause excessive gassing of hydrogen, though even normal charging causes some gassing. Until you know that the charger is performing as it should, therefore, I would be very cautious about connecting any battery to it. If the main fuse has blown, it may suggest that the charger was at fault, or it may be that the electrolyte level within the battery had dropped so low that the charger could no longer "read" the battery and went haywire. The blown fuse theory is somewhat supported by the fact that the charger can not presently read the battery. With a blown fuse, it would not be able to do so. However, I strongly advise against replacing the fuse if it is blown, and then re-connecting any battery. As has been said, if you do, you risk getting a repeat performance, because you do not yet know what, actually, caused the burst. Have you checked whether the charger output is switchable for gel and flooded batteries, and which type it is currently set for? If so, it may give a clue as to why the battery might have gassed so heavily. Re the clean-up, excellent advice. Make sure all traces of acid have been removed from everywhere it went. It will carry on indefinitely eating whatever it landed on. I also agree you should get expert assistance to test the charger. What happened was bad enough, but it could have been far worse had the van been occupied at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sambo Posted March 17, 2013 Author Share Posted March 17, 2013 Thanks for replying George,the battery was not vented to the outside of the van at all in fact it had a plastic cover albeit manufactured to fit around it.The cover was vented though which seemed strange as the escaping gas from the battery was confined to the inside of the van. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 There's an Instruction Manual for the NE 101 here: http://downloads.campingcar-bricoloisirs.net/telechargement/pdf/NE100_2.pdf It would seem that LED 10 just shows that the battery voltmeter is providing a readout of the 'service-battery', and a flat service-battery should cause the red LED in the diagonal set of four LEDS (marked "(4)" on Sam's drawing) to flash. There seems to be no guidance on how to 'reboot' the system to clear spurious readings, but it might be worth trying disconnecting the service-battery, leaving it disconnected for, say, 10 minutes and then re-connecting it. I can't say I'd be optimistic, but the ploy was said to be effective here: http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/control-panel-/28902/#M332504 This other earlier thread may be of use as it provides links to UK companies that might be able to assist: http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Hints-and-Tips/Carioca-656-control-panel-instructions/29610/#M342129 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 Was the van connected to a 230 v source? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sambo Posted March 17, 2013 Author Share Posted March 17, 2013 Hello Brian thank for your extensive & helpful post,I have traced the cause of the explosion to a blown fuse next to the battery charger.I believe there has been a change of battery by the previous owner but due to the extensive damage to the battery I could not say if it was a lead acid or gel battery I assume it was a lead acid battery(as you do) "Have you checked whether the charger output is switchable for gel and flooded batteries, and which type it is currently set for? If so, it may give a clue as to why the battery might have gassed so heavily." I have been unable to find if there is a gel/lead acid at present I cannot see one on the charging unit.Maybe it`s behind the control panel.I will let you know :'( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sambo Posted March 17, 2013 Author Share Posted March 17, 2013 I was at home plugged into my mains supply JudgeMental Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sambo Posted March 17, 2013 Author Share Posted March 17, 2013 Thanks Derek for this I will study it.As it`s a bit of a minefield to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 Sambo - 2013-03-17 11:04 AM.................I have been unable to find if there is a gel/lead acid at present I cannot see one on the charging unit.Maybe it`s behind the control panel.I will let you know :'( Looking at the manual Derek helpfully posted the link for, it seems there is no such switch. If there is, I couldn't see it mentioned. However, the description of the charging regimen suggests (based on those of my own, CBE, system) that the charger is pre-set for gel batteries. There is a small switch inside the charger on mine, so not apparent unless the charger cover is removed (don't forget to disconnect the mains of you go looking! :-)) that is labelled Gel/Pb. Maybe present on charger, but not mentioned in manual? I think I'm right in saying that charging a flooded lead-acid battery as for a gel type would result in excessive gassing, and consequent loss of electrolyte. But I don't know what happens to the charge rate as the electrolyte level falls. Clive or Brambles will, though! Is the battery close to the charger unit? I think it would need to be close for the fuse on the charger to have ignited any hydrogen present. BTW, which fuse was it that blew? Might give a clue. If the battery was installed inside a battery-box that was itself vented, where was this box located? In a locker, on under one of the front seats? If charger and battery are remote from one another, I think you should look for a source of ignition near the battery. I still wonder if the main fuse might have been the culprit. It should be incorporated into the clamp at the + battery terminal, or be in the immediate vicinity, possibly in a fuse carrier where the battery connection lead is connected to the van harness, or in an in-line fuse carrier in the + connection lead near the clamp. I would expect about 30A capacity. With mains on and the battery disconnected, do the lights etc work? That would at least show the power pack is functional, so should charge the battery if it can "see" it. If that is OK, and you can find and replace the main fuse if blown, disconnect mains and re-connect the battery, and see what works then. However, if lights etc function OK on battery alone, I wouldn't re-connect the mains until you are sure the battery you now have is compatible with the charging regimen. I rather suspect it may not be, and you may need a gel, possibly an AGM, battery as replacement. If you can find a Gel/Pb or similar switch in/on the charger, and set it to Pb for your replacement battery, don't leave the mains on until you have installed that vital battery vent that must terminate outside the van, usually through a small hole in the floor (but check for what may be underneath the floor before drilling! :-D) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sambo Posted March 17, 2013 Author Share Posted March 17, 2013 Hello again Brian,I have removed the charger from my Carioca 5 took the cover off it but no visible signs of any switches. I agree with you regarding excessive gassing must have taken place plus the fuse that blew was the 40 Amp negative one near to the charger (see photo)I have since removed it & I am on the hunt for a 40 Amp spanner fuse I think they are called. The Leisure battery that blew up was under the front seat & the charger & fuse under the passenger seat close enough for the inevitable to happen,The charger is going to be tested tomorrow I will let you know the outcome Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melvin Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 Sambo - 2013-03-12 4:37 PM Hello all I am new to this forum.I have a Carioca 5 Motorhome.Last month when I went to check my van out which was parked on my drive,I was confronted by a scene of devastion in the front cab.My first thought was vandals had got in and trashed the front compartment,but after a closer inspection I noticed the leisure battery had blown up.It was quite a shock,after clearing the mess & acid up I bought a new battery & fitted it.The problem I now have is this, the unit above the door is a NORDELETTRONICA NE 101 C the light for the leisure battery "10" on the diagram keeps flashing as though the battery is flat I have charged it to full but its still doing it.Is there any way to reset the panel ? Any help will be most welcome,Regards Sam If my memory is correct Norelettronica had many problems including reliabilty and went bust, Apparently Sargent Electrics do a conversion complete with wiring harness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred22 Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 Hi just a question on the side of this subject. It has been mentioned that the acid must be removed to prevent damage to fabrics etc and I wonder how best this should be done . If water is used this will dilute the acid but will not neutralise it so any drop missed will continue to damage things, albeit at a slower pace. I am sure if I am wrong ,someone will put me right,but when I had this problem in a car, I was told to wash it down with lots of Caustic Soda in solution with water(I used dilution levels shown on the package) as this would not only wash the acid away but any solution left behind will not be acidic but a non acidic solution caused by the acid reacting with the Caustic Soda. Did I have my chemistry correct or is there something else to use? I did this and it seem to work, or was I lucky??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogerC Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 fred22 - 2013-03-18 6:30 PMHi just a question on the side of this subject.It has been mentioned that the acid must be removed to prevent damage to fabrics etc and I wonder how best this should be done .If water is used this will dilute the acid but will not neutralise it so any drop missed will continue to damage things, albeit at a slower pace.I am sure if I am wrong ,someone will put me right,but when I had this problem in a car, I was told to wash it down with lots of Caustic Soda in solution with water(I used dilution levels shown on the package) as this would not only wash the acid away but any solution left behind will not be acidic but a non acidic solution caused by the acid reacting with the Caustic Soda.Did I have my chemistry correct or is there something else to use?I did this and it seem to work, or was I lucky??? Baking soda is the thing not caustic soda. That will merely exacerbate the problem. Rub the baking soda in with just a little...and really just a little water. Unless all the acid is neutralised it will rot the upholstery, eat into the metal etc and in general make a very costly mess with the possibility of making the MH unsellable in future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean.clarke Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 Spot on Roger! Caustic Soda with give you another load of problems. Baking powder/bicarbonate of soda is the way to go - a nice safe solution (no pun intended) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Collings Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 Many moons ago I read an article about hydrogen as a fuel. Unlike most gasses ( including LPG and petrol vapour) that wil only burn/ explode over a relativly narrow air/fuel ratio hydrogen will ignite over a very wide range. It is this property that makes it so dangerous as ignition can spread over very long distances with a viable flame that would die in most other fuels. This seems to have been the case here. I some respects its a safer gas as in the event of a major leak and fire hydrogen rapidly rises away from the source so in vehicle crash for instance victims are not sitting in a pool of burning fuel. In some airship disasters close to the ground survivors were able to run clear while the gas bags burnt overhead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 I doubt very much the fuse blew and caused the explosion but more likely the battery erupting blew the fuse. I expect the battery overcharged due to its age and being on permanent hook up. It probably had got so low on electrolyte it started to gas very heavily or indeed one cell may have shorted causing others to gas. The vent tube may also have got blocked if it was frosty weather. It is also possible the battery split 1st and swelled. Without knowing a lot more details and seeing the resulting mess for what evidence there was it is hard to come to a conclusion and why I have refrained from posting comments until now. However one scenario is the +ve terminal, or indeed acid leaking from just one cell being split, leaked acid and made contact with some metal connected to the chassis. If the +ve terminal made contact , say with underside of seat frame ( look for a mark where it will have sparked) then the spark will have caused the explosion, as well as blowing the fuse as the path is now from the positive terminal to the seat frame to the chassis , into your blue lead, fuse, and then the battery -ve. Fuse blows. If acid leaked and there was enough in contact with the chassis then same scenario but this time the battery is more or less shorted and heats violently. Thus causing expansion and possibly a connection internally breaks and sparks, or the fuse blows and causes a spark. You will probably never know for sure. But I doubt the fuse blew first as the charger is not capable of supplying 40 amps, but the battery is. There are lots of other possibilities such as the charger is faulty and supplied a comstant 14.4 volts or even higher voltage, so it does need to be tested. The moral here is never leave a battery on permanent charge unless it is in known good condition. I also suspect your battery was a cheap budget one and not a premium quality battery but of curse I do not know. It may have been one of the flooded sealed type and had no vent tube fitted. So another question is did you have a vent tube venting externally fitted. If not then next battery fit one. It could have saved the explosive gasses building up and whist the battery could still have split and leaked gasses it may just have saved a violent explosion occurring. Now, why did it gas so much? Unfortunately the charger is also a power supply and does not have a trickle charge mode with a safe current limit of say 50 to 100mA. It just falls back to 13.8 volts which is in effect a trickle charge but a dedicated battery charger would also apply a current limit to this making it a much safer trickle charge. If the battery was ageing a lot and past its best, and in battery terms this actually means below 80% of its original capacity, it is quite feasible for it to gas more than a much better condition battery and for something to 'give' in the battery. For example if a cell went short circuit then the rest of the cells would see an extra 2 volts so in effect is like applying a bulk charging voltage. It is going to boil pretty hard. Premium quality leisure batteries are full calcium batteries and getting a shorted cell is unlikely however with cheaper budget batteries which may just be starter batteries and not full calcium then shorted cells are a possibility. Indeed even full calcium cheap batteries which cannot short between plates by the growth of crystals can have the plates buckle or swell and break through the plate envelopes, good quality batteries use envelopes which will stop buckled plates breaking through and shorting. So chances are, this has been as a result a budget leisure battery being fairly well aged, being left on permanent charge and a massive dose of bad luck. When you get charger/power supply connected again make sure it charges up to no more than 14.4 volts and falls back to 13.8 volts or less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sambo Posted March 30, 2013 Author Share Posted March 30, 2013 Sorry for the delay in posting.I agree with everything you say Brambles.I have had the charger tested (no fault detected)I have reconnected everything,Charger,new fuse fitted.Plus a new AGM battery.Plugged the mains in & tested battery which read 13.8 volts & no light flashing on the control panel.So it looks like the wrong battery was fitted proir to me buying the motorhome.I am planning to fit an inline on / off switch between the negative battery terminal & the charger.Thanks to you all for your helpful & knowledgeable posts Regards Sambo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.