Hihosilver Posted August 12, 2013 Share Posted August 12, 2013 Greetings from Downunder. Would anyone be able to advise if fiat ducato chassis base motorhomes are renowned for water leaks from the windscreen onto the engine. Are there any instances of motors seizing from water in the air filter housing or an i just unlucky? My 3l diesel is being rebuilt after it ingested some of the 6 inches of water found in in the air intake housing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike88 Posted August 12, 2013 Share Posted August 12, 2013 Hihosilver - 2013-08-12 8:37 AM Greetings from Downunder. Would anyone be able to advise if fiat ducato chassis base motorhomes are renowned for water leaks from the windscreen onto the engine. Are there any instances of motors seizing from water in the air filter housing or an i just unlucky? My 3l diesel is being rebuilt after it ingested some of the 6 inches of water found in in the air intake housing. There is a Fiat fix to prevent water leaking through the scuttle onto the engine. The fix involved providing a drainage channel at the base of the windscreen and an engine covering to the block. This fix was done under warranty. All X250 models have this fix incorporated into the design during the manufacturing process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted August 12, 2013 Share Posted August 12, 2013 Hihosilver - 2013-08-12 7:37 AM Greetings from Downunder. Would anyone be able to advise if fiat ducato chassis base motorhomes are renowned for water leaks from the windscreen onto the engine. Are there any instances of motors seizing from water in the air filter housing or an i just unlucky? My 3l diesel is being rebuilt after it ingested some of the 6 inches of water found in in the air intake housing. This problem with water as described above did not happen purely by water ingress to the engine compartment. Not possible. If I had to guess; the vehicle has been in collision with a water buffalo or perhaps more likely has been driven through some pretty deep water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hihosilver Posted August 12, 2013 Author Share Posted August 12, 2013 My 2007 RV has had some yellow stuff sprayed over the engine block but no cover. The previous owner swore he had it serviced by the official Fiat dealer whom, you would think, would have done any recall/warranty work. We only bought the RV last year. Interestingly I saw online overnight that a recall was issued for this model in 2008 for a new rear exiting exhaust to replace the side exiting pipe, which it still has, so the RV has not been put through any recall. The windscreen water collector is a two piece plastic fitting which continues to leak despite my efforts using loads of sealant and screws to hold it together. The sole drain is on the drivers side and because of the angle of my driveway water continues to leak over the motor. My diesel mechanic says the seal for the air intake to the cabin was faulty which allowed water to drop onto and enter the air filter housing. He says the repairs should be a new head gasket, head and valve grind, new glow plugs and air filter housing. Can anyone post an image of the engine cover? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hihosilver Posted August 12, 2013 Author Share Posted August 12, 2013 euroserv - 2013-08-12 8:00 PM [if I had to guess; the vehicle has been in collision with a water buffalo or perhaps more likely has been driven through some pretty deep water. LOL My mechanic serviced the RV before a recent 3000k inland trip. What he did find was a hole chewed through the bottom of the plastic air filter housing and the carcases of four mice which were under the un-chewed and untouched air filter. i thought we'd had a lucky escape and the hole was sealed up but a fortnight after we got back from that trip I drained the batteries trying to turn the motor over. When I called the mech for help he found water in the oil and then 6 inches of water in the air filter housing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sydney1 Posted August 12, 2013 Share Posted August 12, 2013 The answer is yes. I've a new (2013) AT Scout. The windscreen scuttle is manufactured in 2 parts. Water is funnelled from the roof, down the windscreen and overloads the scuttle. This is compounded by the fact that the drain holes at each end are easily blocked by leaves etc and you can image how much water comes off the roof of an 8m motorhome!. Our EGR had to be replaced after only 3 months and 1500 miles (without quibble I hasten to add) and I'm currently using mastic and duct tape to effect a seal and hoping the silver screens help direct most of the water away from the windscreen onto the bonnet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted August 12, 2013 Share Posted August 12, 2013 Hihosilver - 2013-08-12 11:41 AM My mechanic serviced the RV before a recent 3000k inland trip. What he did find was a hole chewed through the bottom of the plastic air filter housing and the carcases of four mice which were under the un-chewed and untouched air filter. i thought we'd had a lucky escape and the hole was sealed up but a fortnight after we got back from that trip I drained the batteries trying to turn the motor over. When I called the mech for help he found water in the oil and then 6 inches of water in the air filter housing. I've got to check what has been done to the hole in bottom of filter casing on ours after mouse damage, but I think there should be a small hole, possibly to allow drainage of water, so if that was blocked you will get problems. Hihosilver - 2013-08-12 11:34 AM My diesel mechanic says the seal for the air intake to the cabin was faulty which allowed water to drop onto and enter the air filter housing. Sounds unlikely as casing is sealed at the top, but water is a bugger for getting in places. Here's the engine cover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hihosilver Posted August 13, 2013 Author Share Posted August 13, 2013 the second indicator of engine problems after finding water in the oil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted August 17, 2013 Share Posted August 17, 2013 Further to my reply above, just checked to make sure the air filter 'drain' is still open, which it is. If you look at the following photo's you will see a 'double' hole in bottom of filter casing, it's fairly obvious that the mice gnawed this. BUT, I believe it should have an opening to allow water to drain out, if yours was sealed after mouse damage that would be why you have a casing full of water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted August 19, 2013 Share Posted August 19, 2013 I am still completely at a loss. I cannot understand how water even if poured from a bucket could enter the air filter housing from above. The lid is fastened down by 4 screws and has a rubber seal as well. If I am missing something obvious, please tell me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hihosilver Posted August 19, 2013 Author Share Posted August 19, 2013 I am also dismayed how the housing filled up as i had put in a new drain hose to the scuttle. I was told the bonnet air intake grill faulty seal was the reason why water dripped onto the air housing and was sucked in by the intake pressure. The good news is the head finally came off on the weekend and supposedly went to an engineering shop today for a valve grind. Am hoping we get the RV back by the end of the week but more likely in a fortnight.. I am just cursing the fact we twice had instances where steam poured out of the exhaust when started and which continued until we'd done several kilometres before the engine came to full power. i thought it was condensation in the catalytic converter and never thought to check the air filter housing... a costly mistake i won't make again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted August 19, 2013 Share Posted August 19, 2013 Can't help but feel that somethings "lost in translation". The air filter housing IMO should have the hole at bottom to let out any water, If water was dripping onto the filter housing and was being drawn in by inlet pressure it would go straight throu the engine and unless in 'bucketfuls' would cause no big problem. I would suggest there was a problem with the air filter seal, either it was missing, had contamination under it to break seal, or it might have been distorted. This would leave a gap even if tiny for water to gradualy fill up the housing whilst standing still. We had a (vaguely) similier problem with a Stampe that was stored in the hanger over winter, small amounts of condensation dripped on the fuel tank from the roof, got under the cap and entered tank, worked it's way throu to the fuel pumps, over the course of winter it was several pints of water and wrecked a pair of pumps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hihosilver Posted August 20, 2013 Author Share Posted August 20, 2013 i was concerned that there were continual water leaks onto the top of the motor but because of the yellow spray stuff on top near the injectors thought Fiat knew what they were on about. Because the cabin air inlet grill rubber seal was always wet but did have a large drain hose at its rear i thought that leakage elsewhere wasn't a potential problem. I trusted that the housing was a sealed unit with an O ring seal and that water wouldn't have got in. I had only ever seen a couple of drops on the airfilter housing before and didn't think to take a look inside until this expensive and time consuming life lesson began . Already wife is keen for the RV to return so we can get away for a break and the mechanic is under the verbal gun to put everything back together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hihosilver Posted September 2, 2013 Author Share Posted September 2, 2013 There is not a single head gasket to be had for love or money anywhere in Oz for a Fiat Ducato 3l diesel. My RV has been idle since July 5th and now am told parts suppliers are waiting for a ship to finally arrive in about a week with a container load of fiat parts. Funny how the bright, glossy brochures promoting very expensive motorhomes don't even hint at the dark side of just waiting, hoping and praying to get mobile again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muswell Posted September 2, 2013 Share Posted September 2, 2013 If it's any consolation they aren't picking on you just because you are Australian. When the auto gearbox on my VW T4 failed after 500 miles VW could not locate a new box, nor could they say when one could be delivered. After 3 or 4 weeks they agreed that the dealer could take the box out of the Caravelle demonstrator in the showroom to replace mine. They did that and a box arrived out of the blue at the dealer the next day. Remember when they brought out an Audi with a very low drag coefficient about 30 years ago? And made it the big selling point. The intakes for the ventilation were placed in a low pressure area, to reduce drag, but the ventilation was so poor you had to drive with windows open...which increased drag. Remember the TT which went off the road on fast bends? The shape of the boot meant that vortices were shed unpredictably and the downforce was variable. The problem had been predicted but the stylists and marketers had over-ridden the engineers. They don't give a monkey's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hihosilver Posted September 4, 2013 Author Share Posted September 4, 2013 Thanks for that it brings my angst into perspective. At least we are on the home stretch with the rebuild to be complete next week/s. I hope i never have to see this again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Newell Posted September 4, 2013 Share Posted September 4, 2013 Hihosilver - 2013-09-04 3:53 AM Thanks for that it brings my angst into perspective. At least we are on the home stretch with the rebuild to be complete next week/s. I hope i never have to see this again I truly am sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings but a head gasket is the least of your worries right now. Looking at your latest photo it is clear that pistons No1&4 are not at the same height which they should be. My conclusion is you either have a bent con rod or a broken con rod, either way the whole engine is likely to be scrap! I am amazed that thew mechanic doing the work did not bring this point up. D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hihosilver Posted September 4, 2013 Author Share Posted September 4, 2013 My mechanic has assured me there is no other repairs other than replacing the head gasket, the head and valve grind and reinstall..However I will relay your diagnosis to him and see what he says Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Newell Posted September 4, 2013 Share Posted September 4, 2013 Hihosilver - 2013-09-04 12:00 PM My mechanic has assured me there is no other repairs other than replacing the head gasket, the head and valve grind and reinstall..However I will relay your diagnosis to him and see what he says Then your "mechanic" is not worthy of the title I'm afraid! That engine is history and would be more use as an anchor from now on. I totally agree with Nick (Euroserv) that this water did not enter the air filter by dripping onto it from above, the vehicle was driven through very deep water, it is the only way that volume of water can end up in the air filter housing. When you think that the water will have to pass through both the turbo and the intercooler before it even gets to the engine then you realise just how much water has been ingested and should start to get an idea of the damage that has been caused. For the engine to be hydraulically locked by water and still have that much in the air filter suggests probably 5 to 10 litres if not more have been sucked up. Unless there is a significant hole in the top of the air cleaner housing this water came in through the air intake and the only way that happens is if the vehicle is driven through VERY DEEP standing water, consider that the air intake is about a metre off the ground and you start to see what I'm saying here. Con rods don't generally get bent during start up not even when the engine is hydraulically locked which suggests this motor was turning rather faster than tickover speed ergo it was driven through DEEP WATER! D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted September 4, 2013 Share Posted September 4, 2013 Mark, Sorry to reiterate bad news but that engine is FUBAR! Ask your mechanic to put a spanner on the crank pulley and turn it over, numbers 1 and 4 pistons should reach TDC at the same time, if not you have your answer. Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmacz Posted September 4, 2013 Share Posted September 4, 2013 Looks like the picture is poor quality and the pistons are actually at same height. I would guess the head gasket has blown and the water in the air filter has come from the breather pipe, if the pipe feeds back into the air filter housing. It can only be a guess from pictures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuxDeluxe Posted September 4, 2013 Share Posted September 4, 2013 It could be an effect of the light - let's hope so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted September 4, 2013 Share Posted September 4, 2013 gmacz - 2013-09-04 6:33 PM Looks like the picture is poor quality and the pistons are actually at same height. I would guess the head gasket has blown and the water in the air filter has come from the breather pipe, if the pipe feeds back into the air filter housing. It can only be a guess from pictures. I've just zoomed right in on a better computer and now have to agree that the pistons are at the same height so good news after all. Have to say in my defence that, like Dave, at first sight they did appear to be at significantly different heights. Another possible, and I say only possible, source of the water is from the intercooler. I work for a company who make diesel powered 4 x 4's and we have had a few instances where the intercooler has part filled with water from condensation, primarily in the winter. As the OP lives 'down under' by any chance did this failure occur in the winter? Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hihosilver Posted September 6, 2013 Author Share Posted September 6, 2013 Yes it was winter here when we used the RV last on a trip inland to Longreach, Charleville and home to Brisbane via Roma and it was warm and dry with 28 during the day and down to 16 at night. We did have steady rain for the last 200k's on the way home and for several days afterward. Two weeks after that trip the RV refused to start or turn over. Go here if you want a closer look at the block https://live.staticflickr.com/5530/9681662567_041e012e81_b.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hihosilver Posted September 6, 2013 Author Share Posted September 6, 2013 For the engine to be hydraulically locked by water and still have that much in the air filter suggests probably 5 to 10 litres if not more have been sucked up. Unless there is a significant hole in the top of the air cleaner housing this water came in through the air intake and the only way that happens is if the vehicle is driven through VERY DEEP standing water, consider that the air intake is about a metre off the ground and you start to see what I'm saying here. Con rods don't generally get bent during start up not even when the engine is hydraulically locked which suggests this motor was turning rather faster than tickover speed ergo it was driven through DEEP WATER! Don't be silly.. Driving through deep water would destroy the motor top to bottom. There is no way i would ever drive through more than ankle deep water in what to us is a very $$$$ RV.. Its bad enough getting grip on wet grass and I would not risk losing traction by crossing a stream, creek or ever entering floodwaters after a wealth of experience in tropical storms and cyclones. The navigator would never allow it for a start. The only thing i can think of as the cause of water penetration is we went through a severe storm at the start of our inland trip where we had inches of water over the road as we went through slow moving peak hour traffic. We were buffeted with spray from semi trailers going the other way. but the engine ran without a hitch. There was no rain for about a week but we had soaking rain on the return trip and for some days afterwards. We had no sign of engine trouble until it refused to start a fortnight after we got home. As the air filter housing mice hole was sealed up the gradual leak filled the housing until it reached critical mass and entered the intake. I am off to the mechanics tomorrow and will see if I can give the old housing a detailed inspection and even submerge it to find the leak entry point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.