dogmad Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 Can someone help please? We've had trouble with the electronic ignition on our van, took it to fiat dealer in our area and they said without the master key they can't help but they could get us a new key and system costing £1000! Have contacted the previous owner, they didn't have the master key when they purchased the van. Any ideas please how we can resolve this problem without laying out £1000? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hymer C 9. Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 We also have a B584 and the key you are referring to is called a Red Key it is red in colour, one would have been supplied with the van when new can you check via your log book if any of the previous owners have it. If not a long shot is a company called Craigs plates (he has a web site) who sells cherished plates and makes keys with the codes in maybe he could be of help. He is at most of the main motor home shows and Warners should have his details. maybe this will help. Carol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmad Posted January 3, 2007 Author Share Posted January 3, 2007 Hi Carol. Yes you're right, it's the red key we don't have. Thanks for your suggestion. Would still welcome more ideas please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oorgiz Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 Hello Dogmad, What exactly does this red key do? as it ocurrs to me I don't have one either. oorgiz. :-> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmad Posted January 3, 2007 Author Share Posted January 3, 2007 Hi Oorgiz. The red key is the master key, according to our handbook "no repairs can be carried out on the fiat code system or the engine control unit (or injection pump for diesel engine versions) if this key is lost". We didn't know this until we couldn't start the van last weekend and had to cut short our trip. Carol - we've got the tel no for Craig's Plates and are going to try them tomorrow, fingers crossed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oorgiz Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 Hi Dogmad, thanks for the info, all my info books and history etc, is in the van, which is in dry dock (where it has been for the last 4weeks knocking our xmas trip on the head) is'nt it interesting what simple problems bring up, when they go wrong on these vans. Mine only went in to fix a small "simple "oil leak (Ha) god knows when i'll get it back as Fiat can't supply the seal. :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmad Posted January 3, 2007 Author Share Posted January 3, 2007 I know what you mean, sorry about your cancelled Christmas trip. We'd gone to Dorset for new year but spent Saturday night in a pub car park having only gone for an evening meal and when we went back to the van found it wouldn't start. Since we got home it's been ok but we don't trust it now!!! Hope you get your problem sorted soon, good luck oorgiz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickt Posted January 4, 2007 Share Posted January 4, 2007 How old is your Hymer, my van is a Ducato base 2003 model and for these you do not have a master key. I believe this refers to all the Ducato of this age. Try speeking to Dave Newell he will know for definate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolh Posted January 4, 2007 Share Posted January 4, 2007 we have a Ducato base vehicle on our 2003 suntor - we have a red key - put it somewhere safe the salesman said, it will cost £800 to replace and if you part ex without it they knock the 800 off the part ex price straight away! Carol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Newell Posted January 4, 2007 Share Posted January 4, 2007 Fiat have been using the red master key system for a good few years now. The red key is required if the immobilizer cuts in as it is (officially anyway) the only way to reset the immobilizer. Fiat immobilizers are notorious for playing up and have been known to just cut in for no apparent reason. They have also been known to reset themselves for no apparent reason. The red key is the only one with the necessary data to override the immobilizer which is why owners should have been issued with the redkey at initial purchase and told of its importance. The later Ducatos (and probably other Fiats too) did away with the red key and the immobilizer settings are now dealt with through the on board diagnostics socket (OBD2). I beleive this change happened with the new (2002ish onwards) dash layout. Hope this helps, D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Madge Posted January 4, 2007 Share Posted January 4, 2007 Our June 2003 Ducato does not have a "Red Key", it's the previous model that required the dreaded red key. Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Globetrotter Posted January 4, 2007 Share Posted January 4, 2007 Interesting. I have a 1996 Ducato 2.5 TDI and luckily do have the red key. Given what Dave says about its importance, should it be carried with us whilst on tour? Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Newell Posted January 4, 2007 Share Posted January 4, 2007 I would most certainly say yes. carry the red key with you but keep it somewhere safe and out of sight. There's nothing "dreaded" about the red key Don, except not having one when you need it I suppose. There have been many cases of the red key not being handed over at the point of first purchase, freqwuently with self imported motorhomes. A few years ago we had a Hobby motorhome stuck in our yard because the immobilizer cut in and although the customer had only just days before bought the 'van in Germany (could have been Belgium) he had not been given the red key. The dealer was contacted and agreed to send the red key to us but it never arrived. Strangely after two days the immobilizer reset itself and the customer was able to leave. D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Globetrotter Posted January 4, 2007 Share Posted January 4, 2007 Thanks Dave-will find a suitable home for it in the van-well hidden, of course!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmad Posted January 6, 2007 Author Share Posted January 6, 2007 Many thanks for the interest shown in our problem. We're now writing to previous owners to try to trace the key, wish us luck. If that fails I think we have no choice but to pay for another system with a new master key. It wasn't too bad being stuck in a country pub car park overnight but we're planning a couple of trips to France this year and can't risk it not starting when we come through the tunnel! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Newell Posted January 6, 2007 Share Posted January 6, 2007 Hi again Dogmad, if you have no joy locating the original red key try these people http://www.codeman.org/fiat.html they claim to be able to supply replacement red keys for around £160 which is a hell of a lot less than the £1000 quoted by the Fiat dealers. D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmad Posted January 6, 2007 Author Share Posted January 6, 2007 That's brilliant Dave, we stretched ourselves financially to buy the van and I didn't know how were going to be able to raise another £1000. Hubby's going to contact that company on Monday. After reading this forum avidly, he said you'd probably be able to help. So far, apart from our new year trip being cut short, we're very happy with it. As we've had no trouble with it since last Saturday we're going to take a chance and go away next weekend but only 50 miles down the road, just in case! Kind regards, Carol & Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 dogmad - 2007-01-06 1:14 PM Many thanks for the interest shown in our problem. We're now writing to previous owners to try to trace the key, wish us luck. If that fails I think we have no choice but to pay for another system with a new master key. It wasn't too bad being stuck in a country pub car park overnight but we're planning a couple of trips to France this year and can't risk it not starting when we come through the tunnel!Ask the previous owner to pay for the rectification work if he does not produce the key, as it is a vital part of the sale. Could be worth a word with a Solicitor to find out legal position, as £800 is not chicken feed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 dogmad - 2007-01-06 6:16 PM That's brilliant Dave, we stretched ourselves financially to buy the van and I didn't know how were going to be able to raise another £1000. Hubby's going to contact that company on Monday. After reading this forum avidly, he said you'd probably be able to help. So far, apart from our new year trip being cut short, we're very happy with it. As we've had no trouble with it since last Saturday we're going to take a chance and go away next weekend but only 50 miles down the road, just in case! Kind regards, Carol & Paul If you bought from a dealer, go straight back to the dealer. The goods were not fit for purpose for the reason you have discovered! If he flannels, talk to your local trading standards, you may he grounds for rejecting the 'van. It shouldn't matter how long ago you bought, you've only just discovered the problem, and the dealer (who you were entitled to rely upon to know more about motorhomes than you did) should have known the significance of selling you the 'van without the master key.If you bought privately, do as suggested and try previous owners. Long shot, but try the dealership from whom the previous owner bought the van. They just may have retained it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmad Posted January 7, 2007 Author Share Posted January 7, 2007 Thanks Peter and Brian for your suggestions. Unfortunately, we bought it privately otherwise I wouldn't think twice about taking it back to the dealers and complaining. We'll keep you all informed how we get on with Dave's idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 Were the people you bought from the first registered owners? If so, either they had the key, and have lost it, in which case they should have revealed this to you, or they never had it in which case the supplying dealer may, just, still have it. It is just possible the dealer's customer database may record if the master key was handed over at the point of sale. It should be a standard handover procedure, and I think the most likely dealership claims a QA procedure. It might test their QA to see how good their records are! You never know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 Hi All, Does anyone know if this applies to the Peugeot Boxer, as they are all Sevel the Citroen as well, as I notice that referance has been made to a 96 Ducato having a Red key. We have two sets of keys supplied with ours but we were never given a Red key from new, as far as I was aware not all vans were fitted with an immobilisor. Bas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 It's up to you but I would still seek legal advice. A consultation is free at some Solicitors as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 8, 2007 Share Posted January 8, 2007 Dave Newell - 2007-01-04 11:13 AM Fiat have been using the red master key system for a good few years now. The red key is required if the immobilizer cuts in as it is (officially anyway) the only way to reset the immobilizer. Fiat immobilizers are notorious for playing up and have been known to just cut in for no apparent reason. They have also been known to reset themselves for no apparent reason. The red key is the only one with the necessary data to override the immobilizer which is why owners should have been issued with the redkey at initial purchase and told of its importance. The later Ducatos (and probably other Fiats too) did away with the red key and the immobilizer settings are now dealt with through the on board diagnostics socket (OBD2). I beleive this change happened with the new (2002ish onwards) dash layout. Hope this helps, D. Sorry to respond late on this post, but I think there is another twist to this sad tale. Several people have queried whether other Sevel vans have the red master key. Dave refers to the later models as not having the master key system. Whereas I happily defer to his more detailed knowledge on the key issue, the later Fiats (so I assume the other Sevels) have a "Code Card" bearing an "Electronic code" and a "Mechanical code". There is a lot of description of its function for "limp home" mode, or similar, in the Fiat handbook, after which it says, in terms, that the card has no such use on JTD diesel models. However, useless as the handbook makes it sound, it is religiously provided, and most Sevels are diesels. Do you know Dave, or does anyone else, if that electronic code is required for some workshop procedures? If so, perhaps anyone with a "facelifted" Sevel van, not having the master key system, should check that they have the Code Card. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmad Posted January 8, 2007 Author Share Posted January 8, 2007 An update on our problem. Codeman couldn't help as they only deal with petrol engines - it was a good idea Dave but no luck with it. So, we're now thinking along the lines of getting a solicitor involved which some of you have already have suggested but this will be the very last resort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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