Ducato X250 2.3 130HP Oil leak

[ebbaga]

My 2008 Rapido with the FIAT X250 2.3 130HP engine has developed an oil leak from the lower end of the engine near the flywheel.

This ocurred after a main dealer carried out a major service which included changing the oil where he used 5w/30.

Oil now leaks following any extended run. Curiously, the oil stops leaking once the engine is stopped.

I suspect that a lower end oil seal is leaking exacerbated by the thinner than recommended oil (the manual states 5w/40, not 5w/30).

 

Has anybody experienced such a problem and if so, what was the remedy/cost?

 

Can anybody recommend a decent FIAT Ducato garage in the Surrey/Hampshire/Berkshire area?

:-D

[Billggski]

I'd be surprised if marginally thinner oil would cause a leak. Check that the oil filter is tight and that the rubber seal hasn't split, that's really the only thing that would have been tampered with that could cause this and the oil could be running from a different area from where it is emerging.

The x250 has a history of leaking fuel filters after a service, it is a complicated tightening procedure that can lead to diesel dripping down the near side of the engine bay.

[AliB]

About 6 months after having the reverse gear mods done oil started leaking near the gearbox /engine. The dealer replaced the seal free of charge.

[Derek Uzzell]

On-line Ducato Owner Handboks indicate that, for X250 models with Euro 4 powerplants (which I would have thought a 2008 2.3litre 130 motor would be) the recommended oil is "Selenia WR P.E." which is 5W/30 grade.

 

http://www.flitalia.it/en/fl/manuale/en/omot_0201.htm

[docted]

Are you sure that the correct amount of oil has been used? ie has it been overfilled?

 

 

[ebbaga]

Derek Uzzell - 2014-07-22 1:36 PM

 

On-line Ducato Owner Handboks indicate that, for X250 models with Euro 4 powerplants (which I would have thought a 2008 2.3litre 130 motor would be) the recommended oil is "Selenia WR P.E." which is 5W/30 grade.

 

http://www.flitalia.it/en/fl/manuale/en/omot_0201.htm

 

It seems FIAT are publishing contradictory information. The vehicle's user manual states 5W/40.

 

The oil was not overfilled at the major service and there are no leaks from the oil filter.

 

I suspec t it is the same oil seal that has failed that was mentioned earlier in this chain.

 

The van is going to a local dealer tomorrow for another guessing game (they replaced the sump a couple of weeks ago claiming that was the cause of the leak and claimed this is a known problem...).

 

[Robinhood]

ebbaga - 2014-07-22 8:13 PM

 

Derek Uzzell - 2014-07-22 1:36 PM

 

On-line Ducato Owner Handboks indicate that, for X250 models with Euro 4 powerplants (which I would have thought a 2008 2.3litre 130 motor would be) the recommended oil is "Selenia WR P.E." which is 5W/30 grade.

 

http://www.flitalia.it/en/fl/manuale/en/omot_0201.htm

 

It seems FIAT are publishing contradictory information. The vehicle's user manual states 5W/40.

 

The oil was not overfilled at the major service and there are no leaks from the oil filter.

 

I suspec t it is the same oil seal that has failed that was mentioned earlier in this chain.

 

The van is going to a local dealer tomorrow for another guessing game (they replaced the sump a couple of weeks ago claiming that was the cause of the leak and claimed this is a known problem...).

 

....if you peruse or download the Fiat manuals by date from here:

 

http://aftersales.fiat.com/elum/Home.aspx?brand_code=77&id_language=2

 

(A very useful resource, by the way)

 

....nominating a manual for a 2008 X/250 supplies a version where the oil recommendation is 5W/40.

 

However, nominating a manual towards the end of the X/250's life (say mid 2013) supplies a manual where the recommendation is 5W/30, as per Derek's post.

 

It may well be that the recommendation has also changed retrospectively for previous 'vans, but that is not, of course, clear from the two manuals.

 

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

As you rightly say, the manual for, say, a January-September 2008 Ducato recommends 5W-40 oil. This manual has publication date of 09/2007. Selecting a manual for an October 2008 Ducato retrieves a manual with a publication date of 04/11 and this recommends 5W-30.

 

The ‘Euro 4’ Ducato Owner Manual I have a copy of has a publication date of 11/2009 and that also recommends 5W-30, so the change from a 5W-40 recommendation to 5W-30 was relatively early in the X250's lifespan.

 

This issue was discussed in 2012 here

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Which-Selenia-Oil-for-Fiat-Ducato-Multijet/29454/

 

where it is suggested that the 5W-40 to 5W-30 recommendation change took place in 2011 when Euro 5-compliant motors were introduced for Ducato, but the 11/2009 Owner Manual contradicts this. It’s also said that Selenia WR (5W-40) and Selenia WR P.E. (5W-30) are both ’semi-synthetic’ oils, but Selenia WR P.E. is 'fully synthetic’.

 

I’m guessing that the change may have been linked to an extension in the between-services mileage interval, as moving to a fully-synthetic oil seems to be commonplace when that happens. Whatever the reason, on-line advice on what grade of oil should be put in any Diesel-fuelled X250 Ducato now seems to be 5W-30 to the appropriate Fiat standard.

 

(I notice that an Owner Manual is now downloadable for the latest X290 facelifted Ducato.)

[Robinhood]

Derek Uzzell - 2014-07-23 7:59 AM

 

(I notice that an Owner Manual is now downloadable for the latest X290 facelifted Ducato.)

 

...it is indeed.

 

and just for completeness, if anyone needs a similar resource for Ford vehicles, then it is available here:

 

http://www.ford.co.uk/OwnerServices/Owners-Manual

 

....where you can also download a manual for the new Transit. ;-)

[Billggski]

A 2008 Rapido was probably built on a 2006/7 chassis, and the Fiat manual would have come with the chassis. It should have a date of manufacture in the service book.

[ebbaga]

Thanks for all the advice and resources!

 

The van is currently in a local garage and inspection suggests the gearbox mainshaft oil seal has failed. Am being quoted between £924 and £1700 depending on what else has been contaminated by oil (clutch, flywheel etc).

 

I never had oil leaks from any of the Fords I owned over the last 20+ years.... :'(

[euroserv]

That is insane!

 

I have replied to your private message a few moments ago then saw this.

 

In all of my time running Fiat 2.3 engines I have only had one oil leak of this or any other nature from the engine and the oil viscosity is not an issue on these engines; they were designed for 5W30. That is as long as you exclude sumps going porous, which they do.

 

If the problem is not a drive-shaft oil seal (fairly common after removal/replacement) it will be the rear oil seal. The gearbox will have to be removed and this can take up to 6 hours. The seal itself is about £30.

It would be entirely sensible to replace the clutch at the same time, whether it is contaminated or not.

The flywheel is solid and impervious to oil damage. It will be fine after cleaning.

 

Whoever is quoting these prices is either trying to rip you off or does not want to do the job. We have enough other work to do and need to be able to repair our own fleet at short notice so have been subcontracting our clutch and gearbox work out to our local Fiat agent for over a year now. They are quick and give us a preferential labour rate. They don't mess me about either!

We also use an independent for mostly the older vehicles.

Some jobs are just best left to the people that do them day in, day out and know their stuff.

[ebbaga]

Thanks Nick (Euroserv).

I think I will move closer to the Leicester area....In Surrey where I live it is difficult to find a garage that will actually do the work. The local FIAT dealer is not interested and referred me to a Vauxhall dealer..

 

Your experience that few of these 2.3 engines leak is good news.

 

Thanks again.

 

Alan.

[euroserv]

Alan, and all,

 

What has happened over the years is that Fiat dealers (mainly car dealers) were selling vans that they could not work on. Their workshops were too small and the standards were pretty low. Add to this the fact that Fiat vans have traditionally been sold at more attractive prices than other makes and that owners were unlikely to take their vehicles back to franchised dealers after the warranty had run out, leaves the dealer network with a shortage of experience of repairs of older or high mileage vehicles.

 

The result of this is that in each area of the country you will either find very few Fiats older than 3 years or one or more local specialist that has been working on them for years. I would firmly put our own workshop in that category but we also have (don't laugh) Big John's Auto Centre which was previously part of the 'Mr Clutch' franchise. The guys at Big John's have been working on Fiat's and Fiat gearboxes for 20 years. Our local Fiat agent 15 years ago was Reg Vardy. They could not get our high roof vans into their workshop without letting air out of the tyres! Ford & Slater have been agents for about 7 years now and are a DAF truck site too. They have invested heavily in training of their already excellent staff and I trust them completely. The collaborative relationship that our firms share is just about perfect. We have been running Fiat's for over 15 years and we help them as much as they help us.

 

That is all very good for me, I hear you say...

There is almost certainly someone not too far from you that has experience of Fiat vehicles and would be more than happy to help; you just have to find them.

 

Nick

[rolandrat]

Very interesting Nick. Many thanks for your input on here.

[thevan]

Well I need help here......I have a 2009 x250 and have always used selenia wr 5/40 semi synthetic, on my recent order for oil and filters I have received selenia wr 5/30 fully synthetic , I questioned this with the supplier and was assured that this is the new spec.........now is the wr 5/30 full synthetic compatible with the wr 5/40 semi synthetic ??????? I am totally confused.............the last thing I want is an oil leak or semi synthetic that does not mix with full synthetic.

 

thanks

 

Craig

[euroserv]

Hi Craig,

 

Don't worry.

 

The X250 2.3 was designed for 5W30 fully synthetic and as long as your van has covered a reasonably low mileage; say less than 100,000 miles? The different oil should not open up any old wounds.

 

On the other hand; you can still buy 5W40 semi synthetic and you can continue to use this if you like. It's your van!

 

Nick

[thevan]

Thanks for the reply Nick

Well the van has only done 14,000miles and its on its 5th oil change :-D

I was just a little concerned that the fully synthetic was not compatible with the semi synthetic, I now have 10 lts of 5/30 full synthetic so may as well change over to that if the engine was designed to run on it anyway.

 

thanks for the informative replies

 

Craig

[euroserv]

Craig,

 

That is a valid point.

 

Not all synthetic oils are miscible with semi synthetics!

 

 

You would need to check the specifications of the oil that you are changing to in order to be sure. We were using 5W40 fully synthetic from Gulf Oils which was labelled as 'fully miscible with mineral based oils' so that it could be topped up with a semi syn if necessary in between services. (You never really know what your customers will do but can be fairly sure that they won't spend much on oils!).

 

Now having said that; if the engine is warm when the oil is dropped and the filter removed there is very little left in there of the old oil so the risk is very minimal, almost to the point of not mattering at all but we are trying to be exact here so strictly speaking you should use a synthetic flushing oil or change the oil twice to be sure.

 

I wouldn't bother.

Neither should you.

 

Nick

[desmohead]

Hi ebagga,

 

& Hi to all on the out and about forum.

 

I have an Autotrail Apache 700 2008 2.3 JTD X250 19,000 miles. and I also developed an oil leak about 2 weeks after changing the oil and filter ( I also replaced the timing belt ) . I used fully synthetic 5W30 instead of the 5w40 semi synthetic used as standard.

The cause of the oil leak was the front crank oil seal had failed. I had to replace the oil seal and have pictures of the whole process including a photo of the "bulge" in the faulty oil seal ,I do not know if it was

caused by the different oil but strange coincidence...

 

Just returned from a long trip down to Italy and all fine now.

[euroserv]

Hello all,

 

Oil seals do fail from time to time; and it can happen to any vehicle. Sometimes, if they are not installed correctly, this can take a long time to show itself; especially if the annual mileage is low.

 

To clarify our experience of oil grades, and for those that are not aware of my background.....

 

I run a van rental firm with at any one time about 70 Fiat vehicles. Over the last 15 years we have run Fiat's almost exclusively. Most maintenance work is carried out in our own workshop. We continue to maintain many of the hundreds of vehicles that we have owned and also look after other people's various vans and motor caravans. We also run about 25 vehicles of 6500 and 7500KG and they are all Iveco, which is a part of Fiat. Do you see where this is going?

 

When the X250 2.3 vehicles arrived, we were told that the oil grade was 5W40 and that the recommended product (Selenia WR) was a semi synthetic. We chose to use 5W40 Gulf Formula G Fully Synthetic. We also ignored the manufacturers service interval and changed the oil every 12500 miles. We can be stubborn like that!The vans were initially out on a contract that covered 50,000 miles per year for 3 years and then 35,000 to 40,000 for the next 2 years. Most of these early 30 or so vans have now been sold but most of them had by the time they left us 250,000 miles or more under their belts. Only ONE had an oil seal leak and three had leaks from porous oil sumps.

 

The difference between a 5W30 and a 5W40 oil in terms of viscosity at normal operating temperatures is extremely small and will not be the cause of any oil leaks. The difference between a Semi synthetic and a fully synthetic at these grades is also not that great. All of the 2.3 engines were designed to use 5W30 fully synthetic and indeed when this engine is fitted to the Iveco Daily it is the ONLY oil permitted!

 

With the change to Euro 5 imminent and with their traditional issues with poorly updated handbooks in mind (i am sure), Fiat decided to change the oil spec to 5W30 while Euro4 vehicles were still being produced. This also enables the dealers to run down stocks of 5W40 gradually. At the time that the change was implemented, it was widely expected that there would be Semi Synthetic oils that met the 'Low Saps' requirements of the Euro5 DPF installations. It has been clear since 2012 that there will not be a semi syn oil that meets the spec.

 

Since our first Euro5 vans arrived last year, we have switched to 5W30 Fully syn Low Saps oil for all current and older vans. There have been no issues at all. We pay a penalty of about 10p per litre for using the Low Saps oil in vehicles that don't need it but the trade-off is that we only keep one oil on site, not two. The product that we are using is Exol Optima LSP. There is a version of this oil that carries the relevant Fiat approval and another that carries a Ford approval. I strongly suspect the contents are the same!

 

Now; based on this experience of hard working, high mileage vehicles (albeit with a high level of maintenance) it would seem reasonable to conclude that there are no inherent issues with oil leaks on Ducato 2.3 X250's. Add to this the fact that we have had several high mileage, 5 or 6 year old vehicles laid up for months at a time while not working and these have not developed leaks either when put back into use; the faults that we have seen reported should be seen as annoying, bad luck and unfortunate but not much else.

 

My advice to anyone with a 5 year old vehicle with a crankshaft oil leak is to get the cam belt changed at the same time and if you have a rear oil seal leak you should get the clutch changed while the gearbox is off. But that's just how I roll.........