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KerryR

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Hi All,

Like so many others, I will start with "I'm new to this!"

Long story short, after much searching we have paid a deposit on our first Motorhome - a 2005 Ace Roma 6 berth.

My query is regarding the weight........she is listed as PLG on the V5 and the max laden weight on the VIN plate under the bonnet also states 3500kg but every search on Google has come back with an MTPLM of 3850kg

We're both post '97 license holders hence are only permitted to drive up to 3500kg and are concerned there may be something we have overlooked and will be driving illegally.

We don't want to pick the van up and take her over a weigh bridge to find we've made a huge mistake and are overweight or with a payload so low we have to leave the kids at home (as tempting as that may be!)

Anyone out there know if there was a 3500kg spec Ace Roma made or have any advise please?

 

 

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Hi Kerry welcome to the forum.

 

If the V5 states 3500 kg and the plate on the vehicle states 3500kg then you can drive the motorhome on a normal car licence.

 

The question you need to find out is the weight of the vehicle in running order MIRO to find out what available load you can carry before being over loaded and therefore illegal. Loads are quickly eaten up when you carry bikes, water, diesel gas plus all the normal holiday things you carry. it may be worth asking the dealer for a weigh bridge certificate to give you some idea of what you have left in the way of payload.

If its only 300/350 kg you may struggle depending how many there are of you.

 

The figure you have seen of 3850kg may have been available as an option to plate the vehicle at a higher weight when it was new. Many vans can be plated higher but would have consequences on who could drive.

 

Hope this helps

 

Gavin

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Swift’s 2004/2005 handbooks (available on-line through the Swift website) indicate that the Ace Roma model had a MTPLM of 3850kg with (apparently) no 3500kg factory option. The ‘payload’ was given as 628kg or 638kg which - at a MTPLM of 3500kg - would reduce to 278kg/288kg.

 

A 2005 3500kg Roma is likely to have been ‘down-plated’ by a previous owner due to driving-licence limitations - a straightforward on-paper exercise involving just the DVLA and no technical alterations.

 

Realistically, it very questionable whether any 6-berth 3500kg MPTPLM motohome can be operated legally with a full complement of adult passengers, but some vehicles may be OK when small children are being carried.

 

It would have been wise to have had the motorhome weighed before placing a deposit on it. As you’ve now committed to buying it you should do as Gavin suggests and weigh the vehicle to check what steps (if any) you may need to take (eg. drive with just a small amount of water in the fresh-water tank) to ensure that you do not exceed the 3500kg limit.

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You can drive it, no problem, the plated and registered weight is 3500K.

Your payload (what you can carry in it) is, however limited, you can tow a small trailer with all your stuff in it, or just carry on regardless.

The MH will carry an extra 350K, so you are safe, but could be embarrassed if stopped and weighed, which is very unlikely.

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The VIN plate under the bonnet is not the definitive one. These vehicles are finished in stages and the Fiat VIN plate only records its state when it left the Fiat works. There should be a second, 3,850kg, plate from Swift, who finish the conversion, and whose plate is definitive. If, as seems most probable from what Derek says, and from the V5C PLG category, the vehicle was subsequently down plated to 3,500kg, there should be a third, amending, plate showing 3,500kg.

 

The selling dealer should, IMO, have pointed this out to you because it will have a considerable impact, again as Derek illustrates, on the available payload. Remember that what Derek has done is to quite the catalogue figures, whereas there are likely to be additions in the form of a wind out awning, possibly bike rack, possibly solar panels, possibly an additional habitation battery, all of which increase its unladen weight and reduce payload. Also remember that children grow, so what is borderline this year is likely to be over-weight next!

 

Very simply stated, a six berth van at 3,500kg is very unlikely to be usable unless stringent weight reduction stragies are adopted. I think your first step should be to get the vehicle weighed empty (preferably with a full fuel tank) before progressing the sale. Remember that everything you put in the van counts, including passengers and pets. For reference water weighs 1kg per litre, and the true weight of a gas cylinder is a bit over twice its nominal weight, so for example, a 13kg cylinder will actually weigh about 28kg (15kg cylinder + 13kg gas).

 

Does the van have as many travel seats (i.e. belted) as it has berths? They frequently don't. If not, it is very unlikely you would be able to add belts where there are presently none.

 

You have broadly, three choices, IMO.

 

1) Take a test to gain the C1 licence category, and reinstate the 3,850kg MAM. Before doing this I would suggest you carry out the following further checks. Look at the permissible loads for each axle, which will be on the Fiat VIN plate at 1 (the front axle max) and 2 (the rear axle max). Look also at the tyres: if they are 15" diameter the likely axle loads will be 1,850kg front and 2,000kg rear, and if 16" diameter 2,100kg front and 2,400kg rear. If this van is on 15" tyres with the above axle loads on the VIN plate, the original 3,850kg MAM will have been achieved by adding the two axle maxima together, which is a generally unrealistic loading assumption. Most vans tend to run out of load capacity on the rear axle before they reach their MAM, so it is quite possible that this van could never have been operated at 3,850kg MAM without overloading its rear axle.

 

2) Check the unladen weight of the van as above, calculate the remaining payload, and consider carefully whether it is, actually, workable in that state.

 

3) Return to the dealer and explain your findings, that the van won't work for you at its present MAM, and that you don't have the licence category to drive it if the original MAM is reinstated. Ask either for your deposit back, or to change your choice to a different van (if available). If you they won't return the deposit I'd talk to Citizens' Advice, as I think you have grounds to claim that the van was mis-sold - in that the reduction in manufacturer's original payload was not pointed out to you, leaving the vehicle unusable for your purposes.

 

Hope this isn't too garbled, and good luck with whatever you choose.

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If the MH is plated and registered at 3500k, there is little prospect of telling the dealer it has been miss-sold as a 3500k vehicle.

Not pointing out the small payload is another issue, but it is probably perfectly usable if you don't pack it with extras.

Mine is a six berth originally 3500K but updated to 3850K, it is 3600K fully loaded.

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Guest Peter James
JudgeMental - 2015-07-01 8:25 AM

 

You have simply bought a van you can't drive....Sorry!

 

What has made you so prejudiced against every British built van and dealer ?

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Good advice, Brian. Especially about getting the licence because most motorhomers struggle to cope with the 3,500kg unless they are solo. Unless the law changes suddenly, the investment in the licence will be worthwhile for anyone with long term motorhoming aspirations.

 

My Michelin camping tyres on my 15" wheels are rated at 109 which gives 2060kg on the front axle.

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Guest JudgeMental
Peter James - 2015-07-01 11:50 AM

 

JudgeMental - 2015-07-01 8:25 AM

 

You have simply bought a van you can't drive....Sorry!

 

What has made you so prejudiced against every British built van and dealer ?

 

your reading whats not there plonker...never even noticed the manufacturer.

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Billggski - 2015-07-01 11:45 AM

 

If the MH is plated and registered at 3500k, there is little prospect of telling the dealer it has been miss-sold as a 3500k vehicle.

Not pointing out the small payload is another issue....

 

But, if what Derek has posted is correct, it would be worth using the reasoning(argument?) that as Swift didn't market this model in 3500kg form,it is therefore possible(probable?) that it is not going to be suitable for the task, not in it's non-standard, "down-plated" form... . :-S

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Brock - 2015-07-01 12:05 PM..............My Michelin camping tyres on my 15" wheels are rated at 109 which gives 2060kg on the front axle.

OT, but only if you have had the van re-plated to show 2,060kg as permissible on the front axle. Otherwise, what is on the VIN plate is your legal limit.

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Thanks for your responses. I've done a bit of research online this evening and have come up with another Ace Roma with exactly the same layout which is also advertised as 3500kg:

 

http://www.webpurchase.co.uk/Graham/mh2.nsf/d61d0a276e6175b68025720900368f28/f1fa44007c7a211e80257ab80035172f!OpenDocument

 

It's mainly the payload which concerns me - I understand that motorhomes can be replated but as someone previously stated, less than 300kg won't give me much to go on especially since she has the added extras of awning, towbar, bike racks, ac unit.......

 

Towing a trailer is not an option......we're changing to a Motorhome from a caravan due to our deep hatred of towing!

 

The dealer has replied to my query stating a payload of 600-700kg and an MTPLM of 3500kg so where do I go from here? Ask to see the user manual or that we take it over the weighbridge before settling the balance?

 

Any suggestions greatly appreciated!

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For 8 years I had a 6 berth Eldiss plated at 3500kgs I had no problems with weight just had to be a bit sensible about load. Now lightweight gas cylinders are available so a little extra weight can be saved don't run with a full water or waste tank a standard 70litre tank is a massive dent in payload I always used a 5 litre drinking water container and a small amount of water in the tank. "Welcome to motorhoming". John
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KerryR - 2015-07-01 7:49 PM

 

 

The dealer has replied to my query stating a payload of 600-700kg and an MTPLM of 3500kg so where do I go from here? Ask to see the user manual or that we take it over the weighbridge before settling the balance?

 

Any suggestions greatly appreciated!

 

If you have that info you might want to ask that before pick up the van is weighed 'empty', any arguement and you can offer to pay costs if it weighs less than 2900kg (600kg payload)

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KerryR - 2015-07-01 7:49 PM

 

The dealer has replied to my query stating a payload of 600-700kg and an MTPLM of 3500kg so where do I go from here? Ask to see the user manual or that we take it over the weighbridge before settling the balance?

 

Any suggestions greatly appreciated!

 

Hi...

Those weights don't seem to add up!.. and they're certainly at odds with the handbook figures that Derek U posted above...:-S

 

Try to source the spec' first hand-

http://www.swiftgroup.co.uk/motorhomes/handbooks (anything?)

 

..also, get the dealer to provide a weighbridge ticket(our last one cost 7 quid and that included individual axle weights!), so you know exactly what real-world payload you'll have

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Thanks for all your advise Brian - feeling ready to visit the dealer tomorrow!

Ultimately our intention is to complete a C1 driving test, but getting time away from work (without taking holiday and thus eating into the time we have away in the van!) is nigh on impossible ??. It's a must as little boys turn into hoofing great men eventually!

Thanks for taking the time to reply to my query - it means a great deal to a newbie ??

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Kerry, in all honesty, I'd sort out your dislike of towing. I have caravanned and understand concerns about towing. I went on a course with the Caravan Club which eased those concerns although I have to admit that I find it easier to drive a motorhome than tow a caravan. Perhaps a caravan course with one of the clubs might help you.

 

When you get time to pass your test for 7500kg, then would be the time to find a motorhome. I think you'll find 3,500kg too restrictive for effective motorhoming as a family of 4. Even with just the two of us, we're running at over 3,400kg without throwing in the kitchen sink. You will find a van that gives you just enough payload but you might always be thinking about going slightly over.

 

Brian - agreed; my front axle is plated for 2000Kg and currently running at 1555kg fully laden.

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KerryR - 2015-07-01 7:49 PM...................The dealer has replied to my query stating a payload of 600-700kg and an MTPLM of 3500kg so where do I go from here? Ask to see the user manual or that we take it over the weighbridge before settling the balance?

 

Any suggestions greatly appreciated!

Download a copy of the Swift manual Derek mentioned above, and print of the page containing the figures he quoted. Show that to the dealker and ask him how the van can still have so high a payload when it's been downplated by 350kg. He doesn't understand, so help him out. :-D

 

Also, check how their payload figure is calculated. It should be the differnce between its MAM and its mass in running order (MIRO), which should include the water, gas, and fuel reservoirs at 90% capacity. But, not all do that. Its a bit of a minefield! Good luck.

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According to the Ace-related Swift handbooks on their website, the 6-berth Roma model (initially called “Novella Roma”) was introduced for the 2003 model-year. This vehicle had six ‘sleeping positions’, three designated passenger seats (which I presume means seats with safety belts - one in the cab, plus two in the living area), a MTPLM of 3850kg, a Mass In Running Order of 3095kg and a ‘Maximum User Payload’ of 755kg.

 

The Mass in Running Order was described as “The mass of the unladen vehicle including a 75kg allowance for the driver plus engine coolants and 90% of the fuel tank capacity."

 

The Maximum User Payload was described as including

a) the conventional load (this is the allowance for passengers)

b) essential habitation equipment (items and fluids required for safe and proper functioning of habitation equipment)

c) optional equipment (items available from the manufacturer over and above the standard specification)

d) personal effects (those items not covered by the above)

 

The Roma’s specification and weights remained essentially unchanged until the 2007 model-year when a completely revised Fiat Ducato chassis and motor were used.

 

As the Roma in question has an awning, towbar, bike racks and a/c unit it needs to be asked whether - with just the driver and passengers on board - it will be below the 3500kg maximum. Strategies like running with empty water/waste tanks, or towing a trailer are OK if there is some User Payload to play with, but if the vehicle + driver/passengers is already hovering on 3500kg staying ‘legal’ would not be practicable unless serious weight-saving measures (like removing some of the heavy extras fitted to the motorhome) were adopted.

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Thanks again everyone.........

I spoke to Swift this morning who confirmed the 2.8 2005 plate left them with an MTPLM of 3850kg - it's obviously been down-rated to 3500kg since the V5 and VIN plate show this.

I then rang the dealer who obliged without question putting the van on a Weighbridge. It weighed in at 3120kg giving us 380 payload to play with. It was weighed "as seen" so includes the 2 gas bottles, leisure battery and spare, 3/4 full fuel tank and 1/2 full water tank. Our intention is to remove the towbar and bike racks which we don't need due to the rear garage and never travel with water in the tank! Saving us a fair bit of weight!

We're never going to be able to load her to the gunnels and will always have to air on the side of caution but intend to load her up for a weekend away and get her weighed again - that will tell us whether we have any spare capacity.

I am so nervous about the weight issue so will weigh everything going in and coming out so always have an awareness of how close to mark we're sitting.

So glad I stumbled across this forum - thanks for all your advise

xx

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KerryR - 2015-07-02 11:46 AM

 

It weighed in at 3120kg giving us 380 payload to play with. It was weighed "as seen" so includes the 2 gas bottles, leisure battery and spare, 3/4 full fuel tank and 1/2 full water tank.

 

...Did the figure include the driver?..Either way, that's not a lot, for a "family" van...:-S

 

Also, did they get axle loadings, so you have some idea where the capacity is available to you?...

 

..and don't underestimate how much, seemingly innocuous, "accumulative clobber" weighs... ;-)

 

(as for the towbar..if it's a full width "bumper", unless it puts you over your limit, all of the time, I'd be inclined to try to work around leaving it on. Otherwise the first bollard or gatepost you back into is going to leave you pig sick! ;-) )

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...Did the figure include the driver?..Either way, that's not a lot, for a "family" van...:-S

 

Also, did they get axle loadings, so you have some idea where the capacity is available to you?...

 

..and don't underestimate how much, seemingly innocuous, "accumulative clobber" weighs... ;-)

 

(as for the towbar..if it's a full width "bumper", unless it puts you over your limit, all of the time, I'd be inclined to try to work around leaving it on. Otherwise the first bollard or gatepost you back into is going to leave you pig sick! ;-) )

 

It included the driver but not sure whether each axle was weighed seperatley - he's provided a printout so if not I'll pop along and get each axle checked.

 

We're going to have to ban accumulative clobber! Just unloaded the caravan and couldn't believe how much detritus the kids have squirrelled away! Pretty sure they didn't need 12 board games and 8 colouring books! I feel so much more clued up on weight so will be rigid on what we can take and keep a close eye on what they class as "essentials"!

 

Great shout about the towbar - it is a full width bumper so if we can leave it on we will.

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