Water pump

[mikejkay]

Does anyone know where the water pump on a 2002 Swift Mondial is located. The booklet shows it to be either a self priming shurflo pump or a non self priming whale pump and shows it to be located outside the water storage tank. I think that this must be wrong as I cannot find the pump outside the tank and there is a red small diameter pipe that goes into the tank.

[vindiboy]

Can you not hear it running and locate it that way, or is it dead ?

[Derek Uzzell]

An earlier O&AL forum water-pump-related posting said:

 

"No problem with Swift Mondial - just open kitchen door and it's fitted under shelf..."

 

I don't know what year of Mondial that advice related to and I assume it's a kitchen-cupboard door that one opens, but it's not an unreasonable place to position a pressure-sensitive water-pump so I suggest you check there.

 

Let's assume your handbook's advice is correct.

 

1. If your Mondial has a pressure-sensitive water-pump (and these are made by SHURflo and Whale), this will always be installed outside the fresh-water tank. These pumps are never silent when operating and (as long as yours is working), should be easy enough to track down by the 'hammering' noise it will be making when pumping water. Installing the pump In a kitchen cupboard would be commonplace.

 

Examples of SHURflo and Whale pressure-sensitive pumps are shown here:

 

http://www.shurflo.com/rv-products/rv-pumps/classic-series-water-pumps/shurflo-classic-pump/default.html

 

http://www.caravanparts.co.uk/3054-whale-universal-water-pump-p-2590.html

 

2. If your Mondial has a 'submersible' water-pump (this type of pump is made by Whale but not by SHURflo), it will always be installed inside the fresh-water tank. Submersible pumps are quieter than pressure-sensitive pumps, but that's largely academic as (if your Mondial has this type of pump) the pump is bound to be within the fresh-water tank. A submersible water-pump needs to be provided with a 12V power supply, so there will be an electrical cable leading from the water-pump and coming out of the top of the water tank. (Obviously, to take water from the tank, there will need to be a water-pipe leading from within the tank. This will be true whatever type of pump is used, so your mention of "a red small diameter pipe that goes into the tank" doesn't identify the pump type.) Another clue to the presence of a submersible pump is that the pump is normally switched on or off by micro-switches incorporated in the water taps. So, if you inspect the underside of your taps and find a couple of thin cables running from each tap's base, it's very likely that the water-pump is a submersible one.

 

A Whale submersible pump looks like this (you can see the electrical cable that provides 12V power):

 

http://www.gooutdoors.co.uk/whale-submersible-pump-standard-sized-caravanning-accessory-p122356

 

If Swift (in their infinite wisdom) chose to use a submersible pump for your motorhome and the fresh-water tank is located externally under the vehicle's floor-pan (as I think may be the case), then the water-tank may well need to be detached to allow access to the pump within the tank. Hopefully this will not be so with your Mondial, but...

 

http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftoptitle-67595-whale-water-pump.html

 

[mikejkay]

Thanks for your response. All I can hear is dead silence, with the emphasis on dead. Battery is good. Switch on panel lights up.

 

There is a whale in line pressure switch. There is 12v at this switch and on the "down" side when I depress the microswitch.

 

Just done 4 wks touring SW Ireland with no water pump, no pumped water, no shower!

[mikejkay]

Thanks for your help. I haven't looked under the shelves but I will do so.

There is an in-line pressure switch which I have checked thoroughly (see my reply to vindiboy).

I have emailed Swift but despite my giving them my VIN no. and Body no. they asked for the chassis no which I thought was the Body no. I will keep on searchin :-S

[Brian Kirby]

Chassis No = VIN. (Vehicle Identification Number). Surprised Swift don't know that, its a bit elementary! :-)

[Derek Uzzell]

mikejkay - 2012-07-24 10:43 AM

 

Thanks for your response. All I can hear is dead silence, with the emphasis on dead. Battery is good. Switch on panel lights up.

 

There is a whale in line pressure switch. There is 12v at this switch and on the "down" side when I depress the microswitch.

 

Just done 4 wks touring SW Ireland with no water pump, no pumped water, no shower!

 

As there's a Whale pressure-switch

 

http://www.thecaravanshop.co.uk/waterpumps/accessories/whale-pressure-sockets-damper/whale-pressure-switch/prod_922.html

 

then it's 99%-certain that your water-pump is the 'submersible' type and will be found in the fresh-water tank.

 

This type of system avoids the cost of a pressure-sensitive water-pump (eg. SHURflo type) and avoids the complication of using tap micro-switches and the electrical cabling such switches necessitate.

 

This longish earlier (Swift Kon-Tiki-related) thread refers to your motorhome's type of water system:

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=27515&start=1

 

Assuming that your Whale pressure-switch is functioning correctly and sends 12V power to the water-pump in the manner it's designed to do:

 

1. The water-pump is in your Mondial's fresh-water tank.

 

2. The water-pump is the submersible type (quite likely Whale-manufactured).

 

3. You'll need to fish the pump out of the water tank, which may not be straightforward if (as I mentioned earlier) the tank needs to be displaced to get the pump out.

 

4. The pump's impeller may be clogged with debris and cleaning the muck out may get it running again. More likely, though, is that the pump will need replacing. These pumps are relatively inexpensive and received wisdom is that their long-term reliability is inferior to the SHURflo type. Because of this it was often recommended that caravanners (submersible water-pumps being the norm for caravans) carry a spare pump.

[mikejkay]

Thanks again for your assistance. The pressure switch is the one shown on prod_922.html.

 

Bad news that it is likely to be an in-tank pump, probably accounts for the comparatively poor floe rate.

 

I have tried getting my hand/arm into the tank via the hatch in the base of the tank but can't feel anything. Dropping the tank looks as though it will be difficult but you don't know until you try!

 

Reading the thread about the Kon-Tiki I might try back flushing the system to see if I can dislodge any crud that might have found its way into the pump. The problem originally arose when I was refilling the water system. I filled, or thought I had filled, the tank, opened the hot tap and ran the pump. Perhaps filling the tank disturbed some muck although I cannot feel any debris when I put my hand in the tank.

 

Previous motorhome is/was a Pilote R580 (still have it). External pump + individual pressure switches. No trouble in 20 years!

[Derek Uzzell]

A water system that includes a 'submersible' water-pump needs a non-return valve in it to prevent water siphoning back into the water-tank through the water-pump when the pump is not running, and to minimise the delay before the pump begins to drive water through the water hoses. For self-evident reasons, the non-return valve needs to be as close as practicable to the water-pump and (when the valve is not actually part of the pump itself) it may well be attached to it. Consequentlyif you are contemplating blowing water through the water hose that leads back to the pump, you are probably on a loser as the non-return valve should prevent the water reaching the pump.

 

As you've got a hatch in the base of the water-tank, you could try sticking a pressure-washer's nozzle (or a garden hose) through this to see if blasting high-pressure water about inside the tank might resurrect the pump, but I wouldn't be optimistic.

 

The basic problem with submersible pumps is not the pumps themselves, but the thoughtlessness of leisure-vehicle manufacturers regarding accessibility. If you could easily reach your motorhome's pump to clean it or replace it (yours is, after all, a 2002 vehicle and I expect the pump is original), your present problem could have been identified and quickly addressed.

 

Even when a water-pump outside the water-tank has been used (as on your Pilote), it's commonplace for the pump to be installed where easy access is impossible. And gaining access to tap micro-switches can be an absolute swine. There's nothing conceptually wrong with the type of water-system Swift chose. It has an elegant simplicity and, with a suitable pump and correctly installed, has a lot going for it. However, with an external water-tank that allows no easy access to its interior, choosing to employ a submersible water-pump is daft.

[Brian Kirby]

mikejkay - 2012-07-25 11:20 AM..................I have tried getting my hand/arm into the tank via the hatch in the base of the tank but can't feel anything. Dropping the tank looks as though it will be difficult but you don't know until you try!.........................

Before doing as you suggest, is there any chance you could use a torch and a small mirror to give you sufficient view to confirm that the pump really is in the tank? I'd hate to think you drop the tank, only to find the pump is, actually, hidden elsewhere!

 

I also wonder if, having extricated what is there, it might be worth looking at an alternative arrangement using an external pump, if you can find somewhere to mount it? More work, obviously, and more expensive, but no pump lasts for ever, and it seems an extremely inconvenient arrangement if a minor fault arises in future.

[mikejkay]

Herewith the sum total of my acquired knowledge to be added to the pool of information on the internet (and to the knowledge of Swift who don't seem to have a clue as to the motorhomes they sell and who do not respond to emails or telephone calls)!

 

1. The pump is internal and, on my 2002 Mondial MV, is a Whale 881. It is located in the rear nearside corner of the tank.

2. The pump is directly attached to an L shaped fitting which passes through the rear wall of the tank. In order to remove the pump simply dropping it would not have been enough. The tank would have to have been removed completely and turned upside down. The leads to the water level switches are hard wired and would have to have been cut, leading to future electrical problems after having been reconnected.

3. The external pipe fitting is a push fit, with a collar that has to be depressed before the pipe can be removed. The internal fitting by which the pump is attached is another push fit. Unfortunately the size of the access hatch is not sufficient to allow both hands to get at the pump. The solution is to undo the L shaped fitting and allow the pump and the fitting to drop inside the tank. The pump can then be maneuvered to the hatch and detached.

4. The next problem is the supply cable which is fed through a small hole in the top of the tank and along the top of the tank. There is a knot in the cable just before it passes out of the tank. Tying knots in an electrical cable is, as I understand it, an absolute "no no". The tank clamps the cable to the floor of the van making it very difficult to move the cable.

5. I eventually cut the cable leading to the pump inside the tank having realised that a more sensible installation was required and assuming that the pump was U/S. To my horror, the pump worked when connected directly to a 12v DC supply. My heart rate only reduced to normal when I discovered that there was an intermittent fault which meant that sometimes the pump had to be given a sharp rap on the table before it would start.

 

I am still contemplating the replacement pump. Not a Whale! A direct replacement will have to be powered via a cable that would pass through a gland located in a more accessible part of the tank wall. However, I am tempted to install an external pump. I could install this beneath the van but I would then have to fabricate some form of water protection. Also, if external pumps incorporate a pressure switch would this make my existing Whale pressure switch redundant? Alternatively, I could site the pump inside the van where the existing Whale pressure switch is located. Presumably, fitting an external pump would require a short length of hose with a filter and a non-return valve to be installed in the tank. Anybody done this before?

[mikejkay]

I tried pumping water back through the pump. This worked but did not resuscitate the pump! The pump on my old ( G reg ) Pilote is attached to the side of the tank and is readily accessible. The problem, as others have pointed out, is poor or non-existent design and a lack of forethought on the part of Swift. Also, the Mondial has obviously been built down to a budget and should not really be compared to a more up-market motorhome.

[Brian Kirby]

You have my sympathy, Mike, but I think you are rather too kind! Mechanical parts fail, and have to be replaced. Proper design takes account of this, and makes reasonable provision for their replacement. That won't always mean merely flipping open a hatch and manipulating a screwdriver, if the likelihood is seen as remote, but it should still be reasonably possible. Having to remove the tank, and cut the wiring, in order to replace a water pump is not reasonable. It matters not that the van is entry level, that should have no bearing on whether known replacement items can be replaced as/when necessary. Entry level is about price and, to achieve lower costs cheaper construction and materials are to be expected. Good design costs nothing: it demands only a competent designer willing to think through the potential problems, and solve them, once, on paper (for which read CAD, which in fact makes the problem solving far simpler). Then, none of the vans produced to his design would carry the flaws you illustrate.

 

I recently had to replace failed rope lights sited behind a cornice, that could only be removed by cutting a wire supplying other lights. Having replaced the lights, the cut wiring could not be re-joined before the cornice was fitted, to reach the other lights it passed through the cornice, and could not be re-joined after the cornice was back in place, because it then became completely inaccessible. Needless to say, the original wiring within the cornice had been completed before the roof was fitted! There was an existing mini-duct that provided a perfectly accessible alternative wire route and, with a bit of modification to the furniture, the feed was re-connected and all lights can now be replaced without the need to cut wires. The better route was always there, and it could always have been used, but it was just not considered. Lights, as everyone knows, last longer than motorhomes, so providing for their replacement is, of course, completely unreasonable! Ho, ho. Such is the world of motorhomes. :-(

 

They all do it, and get away with it, because no-one looks for, and exposes, even the obvious faults when reviewing the vans. I'll concede that your trapped pump, or my trapped wiring, would have taken a very experienced and quizzical eye to spot, but the simple questions, "where's the pump, how do you get at it?", or, "are those concealed lights LED or incandescent, and how does one replace them?", might have been addressed to the manufacturer.

 

Even if he then just looked dumb and merely flannelled, he may have been provoked to stir his little grey cells just a bit the next time around. Sadly, it seems more probable his response would have been to let it be known that the reviewer was seen as a bit of a hypercritical, troublemaking, firebrand, and would not be welcome for future reviews! So, it seems, it goes. Sad, ain't it! :-)