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This Juddergate thing
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usergocro
Posted: 20 February 2013 6:10 PM
Subject: This Juddergate thing
 


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Location: Northumberland. Autocruise Stardream


Whilst this isn't a hot topic now,the whole bussiness passed by me as I have always had older vans.
I'm in the market now for an 07/08 vehicle.It is almost unavoidable that I will be getting a Peugeot 2.2
or Fiat 2.3. My question is, was there ever a recall?I can't find evidence of a recall, for the juddering reverse fault.Did individuals have to sort issues out with dealers/ garages?
usercolin
Posted: 20 February 2013 7:12 PM
Subject: RE: This Juddergate thing
 


Stalwart

Posts: 5660
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Location: Bedfordshire, Globecar 636SB


No there was never a recall as not all vehicles where affected and it has never been a safety issue.
you could check to see if the van has been modded, try a test drive, although you might find it difficult to replicate the somestimes extreme conditions needed to judder, or just buy a van of a different age.
userKeithl
Posted: 20 February 2013 7:16 PM
Subject: RE: This Juddergate thing
 


2000100100
Location: Birmingham. 2004 Auto-Trail Cheyenne Mercedes 313.


colin - 2013-02-20 7:12 PM
or just buy a van of a different age.


Or make!

There are plenty of options on Transit, Renault, Mercedes, possibly IVECO or others I may have missed.

Keith
userpeter
Posted: 20 February 2013 8:24 PM
Subject: RE: This Juddergate thing
 


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Location: Boston Linc's. Frankia i640SD 2014


The Fiat 2.3 is an Iveco engine. Doesn't stop it juddering though.
useryeti
Posted: 20 February 2013 8:40 PM
Subject: RE: This Juddergate thing
 


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Location: NW England


Calling Andy Stothert start your engine!
userPeter James
Posted: 20 February 2013 8:48 PM
Subject: RE: This Juddergate thing
 
Stalwart

Posts: 2407
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Location: Pissindoon, Scotland.


I have the Citroen Relay X2/50 Maxi Van from new, manufactured 2008, registered 2009, and am delighted with it.
The only recall has been for the spare wheel carrier.
I haven't done anything about the 'juddergate'
Reverse gear is higher than would be ideal, but acceptable at my weight - below 3.5 tonnes.


Edited by Peter James 2013-02-20 8:49 PM
userpeter
Posted: 20 February 2013 8:52 PM
Subject: RE: This Juddergate thing
 


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Location: Boston Linc's. Frankia i640SD 2014


Looking at your avatar you need a recall on the brakes.
userJudgeMental
Posted: 20 February 2013 9:00 PM
Subject: RE: This Juddergate thing
 


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Location: London. 2013 Possl 636 FR


Get the VIN, contact a dealer and see if it has had "the" fixes....no fixes walk away. Had fixes then test drive VERY carefully looking everywhere for oil leaks... Personally I would not touch one before late 2009/2010 and if you buy LHD you could probably afford one....Get a good one and its a lovely drive

Edited by JudgeMental 2013-02-20 9:01 PM
userpeter
Posted: 20 February 2013 9:10 PM
Subject: RE: This Juddergate thing
 


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Agree with the judge. They are brilliant to drive. Driving position is better than my Merc' as the seat is more adjustable.
usersnowie
Posted: 20 February 2013 9:10 PM
Subject: RE: This Juddergate thing
 


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Location: Lincoln area


gocro - 2013-02-20 6:10 PM

Whilst this isn't a hot topic now,the whole bussiness passed by me as I have always had older vans.
I'm in the market now for an 07/08 vehicle.It is almost unavoidable that I will be getting a Peugeot 2.2
or Fiat 2.3. My question is, was there ever a recall?I can't find evidence of a recall, for the juddering reverse fault.Did individuals have to sort issues out with dealers/ garages?


If you are the slightest bit concerned, either don't buy a Fiat; or buy one that's been fixed.
Mine started life as a panelvan, I had it converted,changed the reg document, the problem arose, and a Fiat Pro/commercial garage fixed it. It's now on the Fiat database as "fixed" and I'm happy.
It's a 6-speed 2.3, and I'm glad I bought it. A 2.2 might not have been as enjoyable.
We plan to keep it as long as we enjoy it and can make full use of it.

Regards
alan b
userDave225
Posted: 20 February 2013 9:26 PM
Subject: RE: This Juddergate thing
 
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From what I read regarding the problem it was in the main due to too high a reverse gear coupled to big heavy bodies. Panel vans seem to not have the problem and for some curious reasons no problems seem to occur with the automatic, yet is the same gearbox. I am not sure what 'fixes' were done, the best option was to get the gearbox changed to a better ratio in reverse, but Fiat seems to try and avoid that one. I think that Peugeot were more accommodating.

The easy answer is to test drive any one you are interested in backwards up a slope and see what happens. A smelling or burning clutch, and walk away.

The earlier models also suffered from water ingress to the engine compartment and a splash plate was fixed to divert this.
userRayjsj
Posted: 20 February 2013 10:02 PM
Subject: RE: This Juddergate thing
 


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Dave225 - 2013-02-20 9:26 PM

From what I read regarding the problem it was in the main due to too high a reverse gear coupled to big heavy bodies. Panel vans seem to not have the problem and for some curious reasons no problems seem to occur with the automatic, yet is the same gearbox. I am not sure what 'fixes' were done, the best option was to get the gearbox changed to a better ratio in reverse, but Fiat seems to try and avoid that one. I think that Peugeot were more accommodating.

The easy answer is to test drive any one you are interested in backwards up a slope and see what happens. A smelling or burning clutch, and walk away.

The earlier models also suffered from water ingress to the engine compartment and a splash plate was fixed to divert this.


Dave, Andy Stothert might disagree with you, about panel vans not being affected.
userMel B
Posted: 20 February 2013 10:32 PM
Subject: RE: This Juddergate thing
 


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Location: E Yorks, 2012 Autocruise Accent on Fiat 2.3 130bhp


The probem with the juddergate issue, is that there was no LOGIC to which TYPE of vans were going to be affected. Some coachbuilts, large and small, and panel vans were affected, it was pot luck if it affected a particular vehicle or not. Andy Stothert had major issues with his bespoke PVC and it wasn't a massive monster either.

You really do need to check the details of any vehicle you seriously consider buying to see if it has had the problem in the past and been fixed, whether it has a problem and hasn't been fixed, or, hopefully, that it doesn't have a problem at all. Only a good test drive will tell you what it is ultimately like. Don't take a dealer's word for it, insist on a good long drive and do a bit of reversing uphill!
userPeter James
Posted: 20 February 2013 10:44 PM
Subject: RE: This Juddergate thing
 
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Location: Pissindoon, Scotland.


Mel B - 2013-02-20 10:32 PM
, it was pot luck if it affected a particular vehicle ....


..... or a particular driver

I spoke to about 12 whitevanmen. Not one had even heard of the judder, or reverse gear problem.
Not One.
They all thought the X2/50 was the dogs b*llocks because its great to drive
userlennyhb
Posted: 20 February 2013 11:53 PM
Subject: RE: This Juddergate thing
 


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Location: West Sussex: Hymer Exsis i-678, 150hp Comfortmatic


Out of the hundreds of thousands produced only a small quantity suffered with the problem as Mel says no rime or reason depends on the loading on the chassis. Hymer's do not appear to suffer, although we did did not have any problems (2.3, 2008) the reverse was was very high so I contacted Fiat and told then it juddered (it didn't) and got the gearbox modded without any problems.
userJudgeMental
Posted: 21 February 2013 8:37 AM
Subject: RE: This Juddergate thing
 


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Location: London. 2013 Possl 636 FR


From memory was there not 2 fixes required...maybe euroserve can help with this .........
usergocro
Posted: 21 February 2013 9:06 AM
Subject: RE: This Juddergate thing
 


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Posts: 434
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Location: Northumberland. Autocruise Stardream


I took the VIN No. to a Peugeot car dealer at first he said I should go to a commercial dealer but tried the VIN in the database. It came up with two recalls having been done neither to gearbox or clutch.
This prompted my question, perhaps work may have been done but,but not recorded as it wasn't a recall ,just an adjustment.
userlennyhb
Posted: 21 February 2013 9:08 AM
Subject: RE: This Juddergate thing
 


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Location: West Sussex: Hymer Exsis i-678, 150hp Comfortmatic


The 1st one was a change of engine mounts and a minor software update that didn't do much, 2nd was new reverse gear & shaft, new clutch & damper.
userMelvin
Posted: 21 February 2013 10:02 AM
Subject: RE: This Juddergate thing
 
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lennyhb - 2013-02-21 9:08 AM

The 1st one was a change of engine mounts and a minor software update that didn't do much, 2nd was new reverse gear & shaft, new clutch & damper.


I found out the hardway not all clutches were replaced or with the uprated item. I had all the mod carried out in early 2009 @2700 miles. Unfortunately last year @ 9500 miles, the clutch failed, we had it changed at the Fiat dealers £950, it was then we found out not all clutches were changed. On the plus side to date I have not heard of problems with the later uprated clutches.
userrolandrat
Posted: 21 February 2013 11:09 AM
Subject: RE: This Juddergate thing
 
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Juddergate will be around for some years to come, it has had many mentions on here and numerous solutions suggested such as engine software being remapped, new clutches and slave cylinders, engine mountings and the gearbox being stripped down to have the reverse gear replaced. Obviously some major work has had to be done to put it right, thats if the main agent dealers agree to carry the work out.
Quite often when the dealer is approached the all to familiar saying is, "IT'S ACCEPTABLE". It might be to them but then again they don't have to drive them. To me it's a get out excuse to get away with it. Our motorhomes cost a fearfull amount of money and are our pride and joy. I personally would not touch a sevel built X250 chassis with the 2.2, 2.3 engine and 6 speed gearbox from late 56 to early 10 reg. Anyone considering doing so has a lot of weighing up to do and first you need to ask yourself if you want piece of mind because the last thing you want to do is buy trouble. If you decide to risk it then before you sign any purchase order get the registeration and chassis number and take it to a main dealer to find out if any modifications has been carried out, if any has then you need to do a thorough test drive and also find a hill and reverse a short way up it. If it judders take it back park it up and walk away. If you can afford to buy a later model it will be fitted with the latest trouble free gearbox. Other than that consider a Merc or Renault, some Transits are known to have issues as well. The 3 ltr X250 is trouble free because it is a totally different gearbox.
userJudgeMental
Posted: 21 February 2013 11:21 AM
Subject: RE: This Juddergate thing
 


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Location: London. 2013 Possl 636 FR


gocro - 2013-02-21 9:06 AM

I took the VIN No. to a Peugeot car dealer at first he said I should go to a commercial dealer but tried the VIN in the database. It came up with two recalls having been done neither to gearbox or clutch.
This prompted my question, perhaps work may have been done but,but not recorded as it wasn't a recall ,just an adjustment.


Oh please..wishful thinking or what.....read the last two posts from Roland and Melvin. IF the fixes have been done they WILL be recorded in vans history
usertonyishuk
Posted: 21 February 2013 1:12 PM
Subject: RE: This Juddergate thing
 


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From memory it was not a recall item but work carried out at the request of the owner.

Some Fiat garages (as mine) carried out the modification without a query.
Some Fiat dealers, you had to get the dealer to drive in reverse up a mountain with smoke from the clutch before any action would be taken.

I had paper work from the Fiat garage saying what they did, I dare say any owner would be willing to pass that on as part of the service history.

How the work was recorded, I don't know, maybe a repair under warranty, so would not show on the Fiat system ?

Rgds
userTracker
Posted: 21 February 2013 1:31 PM
Subject: RE: This Juddergate thing
 


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Location: Evesham, 2009 A/S Warwick Duo 2.2 hdi 120.


As I recall many dealers did the work but Fiat would not make it official as they never accepted there was a fault.

In which case unless a previous owner managed to get anything on paper from the dealer to confirm or unless he made notes in the handbook of what was done - if the dealer even told him - there may be no way of knowing.

I seem to recall that Peugeot dealers as ever may have been generally more helpful than Fiat?

My own 2.3 6 speed 130 van is 59 reg so probably made in early 09 and it is fine and it has been really tested over some 4000 miles to date.

Whether that is because it was born fine or was made fine I have no idea as there is nothing on the Fiat records for it?

Caveat emptor - buyer beware - maybe don't discount a van unless you have driven and reversed it uphill first, although I would still be inclined to avoid 07 and 08 vans!
userlennyhb
Posted: 21 February 2013 3:28 PM
Subject: RE: This Juddergate thing
 


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Location: West Sussex: Hymer Exsis i-678, 150hp Comfortmatic


My dealer gave me an invoice which listed all the items that had been replaced.
userrupert123
Posted: 21 February 2013 4:06 PM
Subject: RE: This Juddergate thing
 
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This has been discussed many times and it is nice to see many have changed their minds about the x250 which remains the best van base I have ever driven. Much has been written about the 'judder' but I personally doubt that the great majority ever gave their owners problems so have never had the 'fix' and if they have gone this long will not need it anyway. Their are two other x250 based m/h in the village where i live, one a 2007 one a 2008, both are 2.3 and neither owner was aware of any problem until i mentioned it and neither have bothered with any 'fix'. As others have said drive the thing and see for yourself, reverse it up a steep slope, see how you get on. I would point out the 2.2 five speed never had any problems, i had one of these on a 3500kg base van and it was fine, in fact not much differance between this and the 2.3 in pulling power and the six speed box is completely unnecessary anyway.
userDave225
Posted: 21 February 2013 4:37 PM
Subject: RE: This Juddergate thing
 
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Rayjsj - 2013-02-20 10:02 PM

Dave225 - 2013-02-20 9:26 PM

From what I read regarding the problem it was in the main due to too high a reverse gear coupled to big heavy bodies. Panel vans seem to not have the problem and for some curious reasons no problems seem to occur with the automatic, yet is the same gearbox. I am not sure what 'fixes' were done, the best option was to get the gearbox changed to a better ratio in reverse, but Fiat seems to try and avoid that one. I think that Peugeot were more accommodating.

The easy answer is to test drive any one you are interested in backwards up a slope and see what happens. A smelling or burning clutch, and walk away.

The earlier models also suffered from water ingress to the engine compartment and a splash plate was fixed to divert this.


Dave, Andy Stothert might disagree with you, about panel vans not being affected.


I am only quoting what was written in one of the magazines when it was at its height and they stated they had found no instances of panel vans suffering in the same way. They also did feel that weight was a significant issue which unless the panel van is loaded to the gunnels, seems to support that. However, I do not own one so have no personal knowledge.
useronecal
Posted: 21 February 2013 5:26 PM
Subject: RE: This Juddergate thing
 


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Hi Gordon .
Drive it and see, try a steep hill and see does it judder when reversing , if it does walk away ,try another ,or something different. quite a few of them still out there, so care is needed.
Regards,
Brendan 


Edited by onecal 2013-02-21 5:28 PM
usergocro
Posted: 21 February 2013 5:42 PM
Subject: RE: This Juddergate thing
 


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We're trying out three vans in the next two days,2 x Peugeot and 1 Fiat to do this we'll be travelling a total of 400 miles with a nights layup at a pub CL We have warned the dealers that we expect to test drive all of them.
userRayjsj
Posted: 21 February 2013 5:57 PM
Subject: RE: This Juddergate thing
 


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rupert123 - 2013-02-21 4:06 PM

This has been discussed many times and it is nice to see many have changed their minds about the x250 which remains the best van base I have ever driven. Much has been written about the 'judder' but I personally doubt that the great majority ever gave their owners problems so have never had the 'fix' and if they have gone this long will not need it anyway. Their are two other x250 based m/h in the village where i live, one a 2007 one a 2008, both are 2.3 and neither owner was aware of any problem until i mentioned it and neither have bothered with any 'fix'. As others have said drive the thing and see for yourself, reverse it up a steep slope, see how you get on. I would point out the 2.2 five speed never had any problems, i had one of these on a 3500kg base van and it was fine, in fact not much differance between this and the 2.3 in pulling power and the six speed box is completely unnecessary anyway.


I haven't 'Changed my mind' about the X250, If there had been an Autotrail on any other chassis with the same layout, I would have bought it, But there isn't. Mine is on a '62 plate, and so far it has been OK, Not a 'Revelation' but OK, for a commercial cab. I would not touch one between 'Release' in late 2006 until 2009/10. no matter what had been done to it. Either go for last of the 'Old style' pre-X250
or Splash out and get a 2009 or a 20010. Less worry that way.
If you have a couple of hours to waste, check this Forum from 2007 when Andy Stothert 'went public' about his van that 'Ate it's Gearbox' and his wasn't the ONLY one. Many people got their fingers 'burnt'.
I COULD have bought new in 2008/9 but didn't because some were still on the forecourts. Bought a 2005 Peugeot instead. and waited until 2012.
Ray

Edited by Rayjsj 2013-02-21 6:01 PM
userCorky 8
Posted: 21 February 2013 6:12 PM
Subject: RE: This Juddergate thing
 


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I have not had a good experience with Fiat,s the first fiat I had was the Ducato TJD 2.8 2004 model, which I thought was as flat as a fart, no pulling power, and a really draughty cab , I moved up to a 2008 brand New Fiat 2.3 ducato, more power readily available, good positive steering ,good brakes, all let down by a Gearbox which the reverse gearing was way too high, hence the Judder, If Fiat had have held their hands up and admitted it ,then set about a fix straight off all would have been well, it took Andy Stotherts ,to bring it all to light ,I had complained  and was at first fobbed off,  Fiat saying it was incorrect driving, (Insult to injury) after a long drawn out battle mine went in for a gearbox support bracket change,  that done no difference ,eventually it was taken into our local Fiat dealers and the gearbox modification done, not perfect but a great improvement, it then suffered a fuel problem,whilst touring in the Highlands, not want you want when on holiday in a new Vehicle, into nearest Fiat dealer,to have it diagnosed as a failed EGR Valve, I was then told they did not hold such Item,s in the UK and it would have to be sent in from Italy, that took two weeks, so as soon as it was repaired, I got rid of it and bought what I should have bought first time round , my present and long term Motorhome on a Mercedes, with which I,m really really pleased,   Others seem to have had no trouble with their Fiats,  Choose Wisely test drive everything you like first, as stated before if you  go for a fiat ask if the Modification has been done if your told it wasn't necessary treat it with great caution ,I found most dealers were economical with the truth when selling a Motorhome ,
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