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Son of Juddergate? Gripping Yarn!
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usercampervanista
Posted: 23 February 2013 11:04 AM
Subject: Son of Juddergate? Gripping Yarn!
 
New User

Posts: 13



Soon after acquiring our new m/home last April (based on Fiat ducato 2.3 6 speed/Euro 5 engine) we took it to an official commercial Fiat agent for a few minor faults to be rectified. These have now all been sorted.
However at the time the agent also made an adjustment to the ECU on the basis of an "advisory" from Fiat. Shortly after this a judder became apparent as one moved off in 1st gear. A new clutch and bell housing seal have been fitted with no effect at all. The dealer has taken a test drive and confirms the fault which only occurs as the wheels start to turn, the fault is absent in reverse gear (I have not tried reversing the laden van up a slope however, but the old chestnut of a too high ratio is still present!)
The fault is also not present when one starts off in 2nd, and the transmission works as it should in all other respects. At the time of the test drive (13 Feb) the agent was of the opion that it could be a faulty gearbox, and agreed to contact Fiat and get back to me. This did not happen and when I called on 21st for an update his opinion had changed and the solution was to have yet another new clutch.
Anyone out there with similar Experience?? I will report further as appropriate.
useryeti
Posted: 23 February 2013 12:19 PM
Subject: RE: Son of Juddergate? Gripping Yarn!
 


Stalwart

Posts: 626
50010025
Location: NW England


My experience of FIAT lack of ,customer care has made me vow never to buy another piece of their overpriced junk. Their UK reps are aware of problems and try to cover up by feeble excuses and when confronted,politely,they try to brush things under the carpet.
userJudgeMental
Posted: 23 February 2013 12:26 PM
Subject: RE: Son of Juddergate? Gripping Yarn!
 


Stalwart

Posts: 10674
500050005001002525
Location: London. 2013 Possl 636 FR


like your style.... are you a Sun newspaper headline writer by any chance

Hmmm....thinking about it, mine has exhibited a slight tendency to judder in first when taking oft now and again, but I think it has gone now (13000 miles)

Edited by JudgeMental 2013-02-23 12:28 PM
userRayjsj
Posted: 23 February 2013 4:06 PM
Subject: RE: Son of Juddergate? Gripping Yarn!
 


Stalwart

Posts: 2233
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Location: Way out West (Wales) Autotrail Savannah


Lets get this right, the van never 'juddered', the dealer 'Altered' the ECU, Then it 'juddered' when pulling away in 1 st. !! my opinion; get Dealer to 'Take off' ECU 'Fix' and then try it again. Also reverse it up a slope (even if you never do usually,) as the 'next' buyer almost certainly WILL, and if it judders will probably 'walk away' to another van that doesn't.
My Fiat euro 5 doesn't judder at all, in 1st or reverse up a fairly steep slope, it spins the front wheels, but doesn't judder. Hate admitting it, but i'm quite pleased with it,so far. Still think Fiat need a lesson in 'Customer Service' though. I just 'deal' with the Dealer I bought it from, any problems, I will let him speak to Fiat. Ray

Edited by Rayjsj 2013-02-23 4:06 PM
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 23 February 2013 7:23 PM
Subject: RE: Son of Juddergate? Gripping Yarn!
 


50005000500100100100
Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Hymer Exsis-i 578


Rayjsj - 2013-02-23 4:06 PM

Lets get this right, the van never 'juddered', the dealer 'Altered' the ECU, Then it 'juddered' when pulling away in 1 st. !! my opinion; get Dealer to 'Take off' ECU 'Fix' and then try it again. ..................................... Ray

Sounds like sense to me, Ray. I'd also be inclined to ask what was the fault the remap was supposed to cure? Lets just hope the dealer had the naus to copy the original map before he loaded the new one!
usertonyishuk
Posted: 24 February 2013 4:01 PM
Subject: RE: Son of Juddergate? Gripping Yarn!
 


Stalwart

Posts: 1568
10005002525
Location: Horsham, SX.(10 Rapido 7090F)


Our 2010 Fiat (Rapido) has had the reverse gear mod.

I have noticed that there is now an occasional first gear judder.

usually appears after it has been standing a while (couple of weeks plus) and could be more to do with the clutch or mechanism sticking, Once mobile and a few takes offs all is OK.

Rgds
usercampervanista
Posted: 24 February 2013 4:38 PM
Subject: RE: Son of Juddergate? Gripping Yarn!
 
New User

Posts: 13



Many thanks to all for the helpful replies. I had not considered there could be a link between the re-map and the juddering, I rather thought ( as logic might suggest ) that it was a bizarre co-incidence. I will now lob this curved ball to the agent and see what the reaction is. So far they have been very helpful and relations are cordial, though their call return skills have reached the dizzy height of zero! I prefer it this way and have always found it to be more productive than losing one's Rag.
Talking of which, how sad I have wasted my life in honest toil rather than joining that colossus of Fleet St.
If only......
Seriously though, Fiat have had a lot of my well earned shekels and must sort this. I will keep prodding in a polite way and not allow them to dodge the issue. I will report further.
userflicka
Posted: 24 February 2013 9:30 PM
Subject: RE: Son of Juddergate? Gripping Yarn!
 


Stalwart

Posts: 3656
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Location: NE Lincolnshire - M/H - 2012 Adria Sport S572SL


Hi campervanista
We have the same model as you & the only recall we are aware of was to update the DPF regeneration programming, so IMHO, I can't relate the update to your judder problem.
userDerek Uzzell
Posted: 25 February 2013 8:53 AM
Subject: RE: Son of Juddergate? Gripping Yarn!
 
500020001000500100100
Location: Herefordshire - Motorhome = 2005 Hobby T-600 FC


It might be worth knowing how quickly the judder showed up after the ECU adjustment. In the original posting, does “shortly after” mean “the next day” or “several weeks/months later”?

It’s possible to imagine an ECU software revision that MIGHT only affect the way a vehicle moves off from rest in first gear, but it would be strange and the new characteristic should be obvious immediately after the revision had been made. Like flicka, I don’t see a software revision producing this type of problem.

I’d be thinking about engine-mountings, the clutch or the gearbox. One might reasonably expect to be able to reproduce the juddering whatever gear were used when starting off (not just first gear) if the clutch (or engine-mountings) were at fault, which suggests the problem may be lie with the gearbox. Besides which, the juddering was unaffected when the clutch was replaced previously.

However, if the Fiat agency has been instructed (or has decided) to replace the clutch again, that’s what’s going to happen. If the problem still persists afterwards, then the next logical step would involve the gearbox.
userRayjsj
Posted: 25 February 2013 11:14 AM
Subject: RE: Son of Juddergate? Gripping Yarn!
 


Stalwart

Posts: 2233
200010010025
Location: Way out West (Wales) Autotrail Savannah


Derek,
Don't like contradicting you, but it IS possible for a software change to alter the Engines characteristics (Fiat word) at certain rev ranges (as in pulling away and reversing) that are not noticeable at the same revs in higher gears. If the Software change was nothing to do with engine Torque or Rev control, then you are probably right. BUT as an Engineer (fault finder) retired, I don't believe in 'Coincidences' when faults suddenly appear from 'no-where'. Mine is running great so I will be very 'careful' when getting my van serviced, and will want to to be informed and consulted BEFORE any 'fix' is applied. Ray
userMuswell
Posted: 25 February 2013 11:52 AM
Subject: RE: Son of Juddergate? Gripping Yarn!
 
Contributor

Posts: 336
10010010025
Location: North London


When I collected my Transit I went out with the dealer. As we pulled out onto the main road he observed that the programming had been changed so that the revs automatically increased when pulling away to reduce the chance of stalling.
usereuroserv
Posted: 25 February 2013 1:23 PM
Subject: RE: Son of Juddergate? Gripping Yarn!
 
Stalwart

Posts: 1023
1000
Location: Leicester


Hello,

I completely agree with Ray. The software modification may well have altered the amount of power available at take-off and Ford have been piddling about with such things in order to prevent stalling of smoking clutches for years now, so Fiat might be playing with similar things now. I could be that the driver might adjust his use of the clutch and throttle and eliminate the judder over time as he becomes used to the change.

If the software update is not responsible it is highly probable that the flywheel is faulty. These 2.3 vehicles still do not have dual mass flywheels but on the Euro 4 vans we has several that juddered like mad on take-off but this was in evidence from new and these were replaced under warranty.

Owners should always insist on knowing the nature of any in service modifications performed to their vehicle. Not all will improve the way the vehicle performs and you have the right to refuse to have them carried out. In the case of ECU programming; the dealer that does this will NOT be able to revert back to the original settings. A 'patch' is a 'patch' and if removed will leave stitch marks! The entire original program would be required and the dealer will not have this to hand.

Nick
userTracker
Posted: 25 February 2013 2:04 PM
Subject: RE: Son of Juddergate? Gripping Yarn!
 


200050010010010010025
Location: Evesham, 2010 A/S Warwick Duo 2.2 hdi 120.


I wonder whether an after market tuning module - chipping as it is known - would help restore smoothness?

Cost about £200 but if it works it could be worth it?

I fitted one recently on the recommendations of Wooie and it certainly makes the engine much smoother with much better and more even torque from tick over - and also more power if you choose to use it - and I am so far very impressed having never before been convinced of the idea.

Much less expensive than buying a 3.0 ltr and no extra to pay on insurance (Comfort).

Not enough miles yet to get an accurate mpg but early indications of about 200 miles suggest up 2 to 3 mpg which if it continues means it will pay for itself in about 9000 miles.


http://www.energytuning.co.uk/ttpg1.htm



userJudgeMental
Posted: 25 February 2013 3:41 PM
Subject: RE: Son of Juddergate? Gripping Yarn!
 


Stalwart

Posts: 10674
500050005001002525
Location: London. 2013 Possl 636 FR


This thread worried me a bit as like I said earlier my van exhibited a definite judder on start up but seems to have gone...I have just taken it out twice today and happy to say it still seems OK.
usercampervanista
Posted: 5 March 2013 8:33 AM
Subject: RE: Son of Juddergate? Gripping Yarn!
 
New User

Posts: 13



Thanks again to all re. the above. The van is now back with at the Fiat agent and they are dismantling the clutch again to investigate. The answer re the ECU was rather vague, mentioning a routine Fiat update to engine management not related to the transmission. This did seem to improve performance at the time but it could be the engine "loosening up" as it was so new.
I don't think the judderring started exactly at the time of the update.
A couple more points:-
+ Mileage is now 4000.
+ The judder is present even as one creeps fwd. on tickover.

Interesting to learn that the Euro 5 engines do not have DM flywheels, I had wondered about this as a source of the trouble. I am no engineer but for me the gearbox is suspect No.1. More news later.

Ron.
userlennyhb
Posted: 5 March 2013 10:42 AM
Subject: RE: Son of Juddergate? Gripping Yarn!
 


Stalwart

Posts: 3937
2000100050010010010010025
Location: West Sussex: Vanless, waiting for the new Hymer


campervanista - 2013-03-05 8:33 AM

Interesting to learn that the Euro 5 engines do not have DM flywheels, I had wondered about this as a source of the trouble. I am no engineer but for me the gearbox is suspect No.1. More news later.

Ron.


It was only the 3 Lt engines that had a DM flywheel on the Euro 4's.
userDerek Uzzell
Posted: 5 March 2013 6:22 PM
Subject: RE: Son of Juddergate? Gripping Yarn!
 
500020001000500100100
Location: Herefordshire - Motorhome = 2005 Hobby T-600 FC


In fact, it was only the 2.3litre motor that did not have a DMF - the 2.2litre (Ford derived) motor and the 3.0litre powerplant both had DMFs.
usermikebeaches
Posted: 5 March 2013 9:25 PM
Subject: RE: Son of Juddergate? Gripping Yarn!
 


Visitor

Posts: 114
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JudgeMental - 2013-02-25 3:41 PM

This thread worried me a bit as like I said earlier my van exhibited a definite judder on start up but seems to have gone...I have just taken it out twice today and happy to say it still seems OK.


We had our van new in October 2010 (X250 - Euro 4), and like JudgeMental, I was concerned with a minor clutch judder from standstill, even at tickover, without using the throttle. I tried to change my approach to how I pulled away (both hi revs and low revs, clutch in gently and clutch in sharply) in first gear and it was always there. Starting in second gear no problem.

I was obviously quite concerned. However, when the van had between 1,000 and 2,000 on the clock, I noticed the judder had disappeared. And now at 13,000 miles no further sign of it. I put it down to the clutch 'bedding-in' - no idea if that's technically likely, but I'm not concerned about it now.

Oh, and have never experienced any judder reversing up steep hills fully laden.
usercampervanista
Posted: 14 March 2013 3:34 PM
Subject: RE: Son of Juddergate? Gripping Yarn!
 
New User

Posts: 13



Update re above. The second replacement clutch changed nothing. What the agent is now doing is to loosen all the engine mountings and run the engine for 30 mins, switch off and tighten everything up again! According to Fiat this has done the trick in the past. It is worth noting that Fiat will only pay the agent for work that they have suggested and authorized, anything else and they will NOT pay out. Will post the outcome in due course.
userspospe
Posted: 14 March 2013 3:44 PM
Subject: RE: Son of Juddergate? Gripping Yarn!
 


Stalwart

Posts: 1661
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Location: Stockport Autosleeper Warwick Duo 2.2 130bhp


campervanista - 2013-03-14 3:34 PM

Update re above. The second replacement clutch changed nothing. What the agent is now doing is to loosen all the engine mountings and run the engine for 30 mins, switch off and tighten everything up again! According to Fiat this has done the trick in the past. It is worth noting that Fiat will only pay the agent for work that they have suggested and authorized, anything else and they will NOT pay out. Will post the outcome in due course.


Please do report further, this story is having a bearing on my replacement vehicle for next year.
usercampervanista
Posted: 18 March 2013 12:40 PM
Subject: RE: Son of Juddergate? Gripping Yarn!
 
New User

Posts: 13



The latest re. the above is that the procedure relating to the engine mountings has also proved fruitless. The agent recommended that I take the van away and see how I got on. Laughable!! Clearly he just wanted me to go away.
With steam coming from each ear I said that they should get onto Fiat and sort the matter out once and forall. Together with the manifold problems with the van conversion (small migratory bird) the vehicle has not been with us for nearly all of the last 5 months and is clearly not fit for purpose.
This story has led to one acquaintance of ours reconsidering their next van purchase, and may help the gentleman who posted a reply to my last missive with his decision. (Sorry can't remember your name and am fearful of losing what I have already written through computer ineptitude if I try to go back!)
Regards,
Ron.
userspospe
Posted: 18 March 2013 4:52 PM
Subject: RE: Son of Juddergate? Gripping Yarn!
 


Stalwart

Posts: 1661
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Location: Stockport Autosleeper Warwick Duo 2.2 130bhp


campervanista - 2013-03-18 12:40 PM

The latest re. the above is that the procedure relating to the engine mountings has also proved fruitless. The agent recommended that I take the van away and see how I got on. Laughable!! Clearly he just wanted me to go away.
With steam coming from each ear I said that they should get onto Fiat and sort the matter out once and forall. Together with the manifold problems with the van conversion (small migratory bird) the vehicle has not been with us for nearly all of the last 5 months and is clearly not fit for purpose.
This story has led to one acquaintance of ours reconsidering their next van purchase, and may help the gentleman who posted a reply to my last missive with his decision. (Sorry can't remember your name and am fearful of losing what I have already written through computer ineptitude if I try to go back!)
Regards,
Ron.


It was I that said your story was having an influence on my choice for next year. Yet again we see that FIAT place customers at the bottom of their priority list; so no prizes for guessing what I will not be buying. A shame really as the X250 seems a fine vehicle, but any kind of problem and you are on your own. Maybe Peugeot are better?
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 18 March 2013 5:20 PM
Subject: RE: Son of Juddergate? Gripping Yarn!
 


50005000500100100100
Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Hymer Exsis-i 578


The van has now done 4,000 miles. It has had two new clutches, and the engine mounts re-settled, to try to eliminate a judder in first gear only, at drive away and when idling. I assume this judder when idling is when in first gear, with the clutch fully engaged, and the van crawling forward with the engine just idling?

What you have not yet said, however, is how this judder manifests, and what sort of frequency it has. Giving a bit more info may help. Where do you feel the judder? Does it shake the whole van, or do you merely see the gear lever bobbling around a bit? Might it be due to rough running, possibly caused by an injector fault at low loads?

From your comments re second gear and reversing, plus two clutches, it seem unlikely the clutch can be the culprit. It also seems somewhat unlikely the remap can be the culprit, as I would have expected that to be apparent immediately. It might be worthwhile finding out how much of the clutch has been replaced each time. If less than a total replacement of all components, the fault might be in whatever has not been changed. However, I would expect the lot to have been done the second time, even if not the first.

It could, I suppose, be the result of your van standing around over this cold, very wet, winter, and some corrosion forming on clutch/flywheel surfaces, so the request to take it and drive it around may not be as flippant as it sounds. Use will polish it somewhat, and may remove any roughness due to corrosion. You need to keep the garage on your side as they are the "gatekeeper" for warranty access to Fiat. If antagonised they may begin just prevaricating, instead - as they seem to have been doing so far - taking a lead.

Is there another Fiat commercial dealer you could take the van to for a second opinion? I'm not suggesting sneaking off to them, but openly saying to both parties that you'd welcome a different interpretation. Someone else may recognise a problem your present garage hasn't encountered before. You could try asking for a Fiat technical assessor to drive the van to see what response they have. However, I think you should contact Fiat customer services yourself, or Fiat Camper Assist if your van qualifies, explaining the problem to them, and get it formally logged by them as an unresolved technical issue under warranty.

If you have serious misgivings about this as a fault, I think you should also contact the converter (or whoever you bought the motorhome from), advising them of all the circumstances, and that you seem to be near exhausting Fiat's arsenal, to make them aware you have doubts regarding the vehicles fitness for purpose. I say this because, under consumer legislation, it is the seller who is legally responsible for the adequacy of what they sell, and not Fiat.
userrolandrat
Posted: 18 March 2013 5:52 PM
Subject: RE: Son of Juddergate? Gripping Yarn!
 
Stalwart

Posts: 964
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Location: North East Lancs


There was an interesting story in the Sunday Mail about an owner who's caravan was classified as not fit for purpose and the dealer had to give him a full refund. It was in last Sundays edition.
usertonyishuk
Posted: 19 March 2013 3:20 PM
Subject: RE: Son of Juddergate? Gripping Yarn!
 


Stalwart

Posts: 1568
10005002525
Location: Horsham, SX.(10 Rapido 7090F)


Brian Kirby - 2013-03-18 5:20 PM

Is there another Fiat commercial dealer you could take the van to for a second opinion? I'm not suggesting sneaking off to them, but openly saying to both parties that you'd welcome a different interpretation. .


Well worth doing if you can, My Rapido had to be looked at by a non local dealer a couple of times because It was difficult to get resolution.

My Fiat ended up at a Fiat dealer in Aldershot, via the Rapido dealer and the problems are resolved.

May have been said on the thread elsewhere but you purchased the M/home from a M/home dealer and it is his responsibility to resolve the problem, Not necessarily the local Fiat garage because the garage and dealer have a working relationship.



Rgds
usercampervanista
Posted: 25 March 2013 3:11 PM
Subject: RE: Son of Juddergate? Gripping Yarn!
 
New User

Posts: 13



Some progress! Since last posting I have gone back to the Fiat agent and they have been very helpful, and I got to speak to the guy who worked on the vehicle. To recap the juddering was just as the clutch engaged and was felt throughout the van as the wheels began to turn and at no other time (1st gear only). It was a low frequency vibration and occured also when creeping fwd on tickover.

The technician said that the procedure with the engine mountings had in his opinion improved matters but the fault was still present. He suggested I accept the van back to see if things improved more with use. I saw the logic of this and agreed to do so. Following the kind advice from Mr Brian Kirby I have done a few hill starts as well and get the impression that the problem is perhaps diminishing. It appears more prominent now when moving fwd on tickover than when one moves off with a few revs in the normal way.When the weather improves I will test it on a long trip and report further.
The two clutch changes were using the full Fiat 'kit' with thrust bearing et al, by the way, rather a waste of time as suspected, but he who pays the piper....

I did also write to the dealer putting them in the picture and letting them know that as things stood the van was not fit for use and any redress would be through them. They have in fact done their utmost in respect of all the many defects that were present when we took delivery and have developed since on the conversion. Chapeau to them. I have nothing but praise and it is a shame they had to sort so many things out. I would say that quality control at the factory was very poor and the van should not have left Yorkshire with so many faults. They are too numerous to mention, but if anyone is interested I will be happy to list them.
Regards, CV
usercampervanista
Posted: 25 March 2013 3:11 PM
Subject: RE: Son of Juddergate? Gripping Yarn!
 
New User

Posts: 13



Some progress! Since last posting I have gone back to the Fiat agent and they have been very helpful, and I got to speak to the guy who worked on the vehicle. To recap the juddering was just as the clutch engaged and was felt throughout the van as the wheels began to turn and at no other time (1st gear only). It was a low frequency vibration and occured also when creeping fwd on tickover.

The technician said that the procedure with the engine mountings had in his opinion improved matters but the fault was still present. He suggested I accept the van back to see if things improved more with use. I saw the logic of this and agreed to do so. Following the kind advice from Mr Brian Kirby I have done a few hill starts as well and get the impression that the problem is perhaps diminishing. It appears more prominent now when moving fwd on tickover than when one moves off with a few revs in the normal way.When the weather improves I will test it on a long trip and report further.
The two clutch changes were using the full Fiat 'kit' with thrust bearing et al, by the way, rather a waste of time as suspected, but he who pays the piper....

I did also write to the dealer putting them in the picture and letting them know that as things stood the van was not fit for use and any redress would be through them. They have in fact done their utmost in respect of all the many defects that were present when we took delivery and have developed since on the conversion. Chapeau to them. I have nothing but praise and it is a shame they had to sort so many things out. I would say that quality control at the factory was very poor and the van should not have left Yorkshire with so many faults. They are too numerous to mention, but if anyone is interested I will be happy to list them.
Regards, CV
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