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userAndyStothert
Posted: 17 January 2008 12:57 PM
Subject: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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As many of you will probably know I bought a new Fiat camper in May 2007 and it is suffering from the seemingly endemic juddering in the transmission whilst reversing uphill. Our is a 2.3 litre version with 6 speed box.
I took it to the local dealer to whinge and they informed me that Fiat were aware of the problem and were advising owners to use more revs and everything woud be fine.
After driving several motorhomes based on the various combinations of chassis and engine it seems thart the problem is an endemic one.
In July we were compelled to reverse up a steep hill for quite some distance and the juddering was truly awful. Immedaitely afterwards the gearbox lost synchro on second and third gears.
As a result of this a new gearbox was (eventually) fitted.
This should worry every owner of the new Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen because whilst the situation we found ourselves in (having to reverse up a steep hill in the mountains) doesn't occurr very often the fact that it can damage the gearbox if these conditions are met is serious.
Fiat tell me not to worry - they will honour the warranty - but what if you end up in this situation for the first time, and it results in a knackered gearbox after three years and one day?
If you have a judder whilst reversing uphill start complaining to Fiat. Do not accept the 'use more revs' fob off.
If you haven't got a Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen, I would suggest you don't buy one until this potentailly expensive problem is resolved.


Edited by AndyStothert 2008-01-17 1:00 PM
 
userTracker
Posted: 17 January 2008 1:22 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


Andy,

Sorry to hear of your woes and fortunately I don't have, and don't intend having, one of these vans for a long time yet.

It does occur to me that there seem to be many and varied issues with these new vans and maybe, as you have journalistic 'clout', you might consider organising a help forum specifically for owners of said vans?

Maybe all warranty and durability topics can be coordinated and consolidated in one source of reference - preferably in MMM print - so that any and all owners with problem vehicles and problem dealers can show their dealers the source and hopefully, the voracity, of the information?

I appreciate that this might not endear Warners and MMM to Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen and I fear that the publishers may very well be afraid of the repercussions of offending the manufacturers.

That said, maybe a well founded, informative, constructive and high profile campaign might be good for sales on MMM and it would certainly do Warners street cred with the great motorhome buying public no harm whatsoever.

We are tired of being taken for a ride and financially abused by base vehicle makers, converters and the government.

What about it Andy?

Does anyone else feel the same or are we just peeing against the wind of reality?
 
userfred grant
Posted: 17 January 2008 3:19 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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Trakker my luvver
it do sound as if youm got a spot of indejestion

alice
 
userTracker
Posted: 17 January 2008 4:15 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


fred grant - 2008-01-17 3:19 PM

Trakker my luvver
it do sound as if youm got a spot of indejestion

alice


Knot at awl Alice me andsum, but us do get more than a bit brassed off with companies and services givin' us a bad time and not much carin' what happens next as long as they's got us's hard earned spondoolicks.

But then I always was an unreasonable bugger - fancy any fool expectin' to get good service and integrity all the time. Silly me!

It do also tend to reflect on them what do care 'cos when things do go wrong some folks gets irate before 'tis time to and it dun't 'elp do it?
 
userCorky 8
Posted: 17 January 2008 4:53 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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Tracker - 2008-01-17 1:22 PM

Andy,

Sorry to hear of your woes and fortunately I don't have, and don't intend having, one of these vans for a long time yet.

It does occur to me that there seem to be many and varied issues with these new vans and maybe, as you have journalistic 'clout', you might consider organising a help forum specifically for owners of said vans?

Maybe all warranty and durability topics can be coordinated and consolidated in one source of reference - preferably in MMM print - so that any and all owners with problem vehicles and problem dealers can show their dealers the source and hopefully, the voracity, of the information?

I appreciate that this might not endear Warners and MMM to Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen and I fear that the publishers may very well be afraid of the repercussions of offending the manufacturers.

That said, maybe a well founded, informative, constructive and high profile campaign might be good for sales on MMM and it would certainly do Warners street cred with the great motorhome buying public no harm whatsoever.

We are tired of being taken for a ride and financially abused by base vehicle makers, converters and the government.

What about it Andy?

Does anyone else feel the same or are we just peeing against the wind of reality?
Hi Tracker, Not having come across any problems (as yet ) with my 04 Fiat, I am still concerned enough about the Treatment a lot of sevel vehicle owners get, could we not get our Boffins on these Forums to put together some form of general complaint covering the lack of interest ,lack of customer service etc etc, shown by the Sevel three an most agent there of , worded to suit the whole situation ,(it would take some discussion to sort out the wording), but once formulated and made available as a download to be sent by one and all to the appropriate dept of Sevel, BUT there lies its downfall every owner of the Sevel motor,s taking the trouble to download and post it, But its a start of some sort of gathering of the Sevel Clan one would hope, what do you think, the more ideas the better ,
 
userDon Madge
Posted: 17 January 2008 5:07 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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Corky 8 - 2008-01-17 4:53 PM

Tracker - 2008-01-17 1:22 PM

Andy,

Sorry to hear of your woes and fortunately I don't have, and don't intend having, one of these vans for a long time yet.

It does occur to me that there seem to be many and varied issues with these new vans and maybe, as you have journalistic 'clout', you might consider organising a help forum specifically for owners of said vans?

Maybe all warranty and durability topics can be coordinated and consolidated in one source of reference - preferably in MMM print - so that any and all owners with problem vehicles and problem dealers can show their dealers the source and hopefully, the voracity, of the information?

I appreciate that this might not endear Warners and MMM to Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen and I fear that the publishers may very well be afraid of the repercussions of offending the manufacturers.

That said, maybe a well founded, informative, constructive and high profile campaign might be good for sales on MMM and it would certainly do Warners street cred with the great motorhome buying public no harm whatsoever.

We are tired of being taken for a ride and financially abused by base vehicle makers, converters and the government.

What about it Andy?

Does anyone else feel the same or are we just peeing against the wind of reality?
Hi Tracker, Not having come across any problems (as yet ) with my 04 Fiat, I am still concerned enough about the Treatment a lot of sevel vehicle owners get, could we not get our Boffins on these Forums to put together some form of general complaint covering the lack of interest ,lack of customer service etc etc, shown by the Sevel three an most agent there of , worded to suit the whole situation ,(it would take some discussion to sort out the wording), but once formulated and made available as a download to be sent by one and all to the appropriate dept of Sevel, BUT there lies its downfall every owner of the Sevel motor,s taking the trouble to download and post it, But its a start of some sort of gathering of the Sevel Clan one would hope, what do you think, the more ideas the better ,


Hi,

I think the thread is about the latest range of Ducatos not the model you have.

Don
 
userMike H
Posted: 17 January 2008 4:19 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Andy.
Got the same problem, like a lot of other owners, have tried more revs and it doesn't work. Got stuck on a friends drive it just wouldn't go up the drive in reverse. I had to turn around on the drive and lawn to be able drive the van out. Suggestions, on another forum, about not using any revs, is OK on the flat, but as soon as there is a slight incline it starts to judder. Fiat told me last week to ask the Dealer to look at it when it goes in for recall work and water ingress to be sorted. I have heard that owners have been told it is a ratio problem and to get on with it. If this is the case, it needs to be sorted and the correct ratio gear fitted. You didn't say if the new gearbox was OK or not? Has it solved the problem?
Mike H.
 
userAndyStothert
Posted: 17 January 2008 9:01 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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No, the new gearbox hasn't made any difference, but I suppose the point I was trying to make is that because I've had a right go at Fiat, and they have opened a complaints file, they say that they will back up the warranty even if the problems aren't resolved within the warranty period.
If you have one of these vehicles and don't complaint officially the scenario which I outlined (a knackered gearbox as a result of the fault outside of the warranty period) then Fiat (or Peugeot or Citroen) will not shoulder any responsibility. Hence my advice to complain long and loud which I'm continuing to do. Fiat do say they are investigating, but this has now been going on since the launch of the new van.
My next step will be to visit strategic locations (Fiat and certain motorhome dealers), stand outside with a large banner encouraging folk not to buy the product and inviting the local press and police along.
It may not do any good, but with a bit of luck I'll get locked up and then whinge even harder to the press at court ...........
And is anyone prepared to share in the cost of a full page advert in MMM or one of the other magazines? Assuming they will carry it.
 
userchas
Posted: 17 January 2008 5:07 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Always thought that when juddering in reverse particulary on a incline shows that there is some misalignment with the clutch plates on contact to the flywheel, it needs to me inspected by a trained mechanic.
 
userTracker
Posted: 18 January 2008 10:41 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


chas - 2008-01-17 5:07 PM

Always thought that when juddering in reverse particulary on a incline shows that there is some misalignment with the clutch plates on contact to the flywheel, it needs to me inspected by a trained mechanic.


Judder in reverse gear, whilst not limited to front wheel drive, has always been a front wheel drive 'trait' and it seems to result mainly from a combination of inadequate engine mounts combined with too high a reverse gear ratio and a very short drive train length (compared to an in line engine, gearbox and differential on a rear wheel drive).

Oil on the clutch plates from leaky crankshaft oil seals can also cause it, but on a new vehicle this seems unlikely?

Early minis (1959) suffered badly and BMC soon installed a rubber bushed engine brace between the cylinder head and the bulkhead to cut down engine rocking. This helped no end but even then they could still judder.

The engineering can't be that difficult as most cars are front wheel drive these days and most cars don't suffer reverse judder in spite of having a far higher power to weight ratio than most vans.

This leads non technical me to think that it may well be a design failing and might well be nigh on impossible to cure without redesigning the engine mounts and changing the gear ratios?

No wonder Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen just want you all to go away?

Edited by Tracker 2008-01-18 10:42 AM
 
userMike B.
Posted: 17 January 2008 7:14 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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I had this problem with my last van which had a smaller 2L engine. Even on almost level it would moan and groan a bit in reverse and reversing onto leveling blocks was almost impossible. I now have a 2.8 2005 model and have never had a problem with it-As original post referred to 2.3 model, is this the only model with this problem or have the New model larger engine vans encountered it also?
Mike
 
userTony Jones
Posted: 17 January 2008 7:37 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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Not just Fords then?

(With apols to Way2go)

Tony
 
userWay2Go
Posted: 18 January 2008 1:14 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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Tony Jones - 2008-01-17 7:37 PM Not just Fords then? (With apols to Way2go) Tony

             

 
userbigal55
Posted: 17 January 2008 9:20 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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andy i,ve a similar promise from fiat that they will repair any damage to the engine bay due to water ingress even if it is out of warranty, i had to threaten my dealer with the sale of goods act before anybody would acknowledge there was a problem with water ingress. iv,e posted on this forum telling anybody with the x250 complain, as fiat are taking the cheapest option and only fixing the vans of people who complain. white van man generally does,t care and they far outnumber m/home owners. i would certainly contribute towards the cost of of an advert.
 
userStuart
Posted: 17 January 2008 9:49 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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I have every sympathy with those who have spent substantial sums of their hard earned.
The only way Fiat will take any notice is when their sales plumet. I had the classic 5th gear problem four weeks after the warranty expired and they did not give a toss. It will be a long time before I buy another Fiat.

I do hope that your probs are soon sorted.

Stuart
 
userClive
Posted: 17 January 2008 9:33 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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Told you to by a Merc Andy! or even a Transit (RWD).

I guess the problem requires a change to suspension, engine mounting, clutch, dampers, drive shafts etc to take the natural resonant frequency of the dynamics well away from where they are. The mass of the body will also come into the equasion. Is this problem just on coach builts or do van conversions suffer similarly?


looking forward to your next set of photo,s in the mag.

Good luck
C.

 
userDon Madge
Posted: 18 January 2008 10:23 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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Clive - 2008-01-17 9:33 PM

Told you to by a Merc Andy! or even a Transit (RWD).

I guess the problem requires a change to suspension, engine mounting, clutch, dampers, drive shafts etc to take the natural resonant frequency of the dynamics well away from where they are. The mass of the body will also come into the equasion. Is this problem just on coach builts or do van conversions suffer similarly?


looking forward to your next set of photo,s in the mag.

Good luck
C.



Clive,

Andy has a van coversion, I think it's right across the board.

Don
 
userDerek Uzzell
Posted: 18 January 2008 9:57 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Mike H:

The gearbox ratios of Fiat Ducatos are stated on:

http://www.italiaspeed.com/new_models/2006/fiat/ducato/technical_specification.html

Assuming the information is correct, it seems that the 5-speed gearbox fitted to the 100PS 2.2-litre motor and the 6-speed gearbox used on the 157PS 3.0-litre motor have a reverse gear slightly higher than 1st gear. (By that I mean, for the same number of engine revs, you'd go faster in reverse gear than going forward in 1st-gear). Conversely, the 6-speed gearbox on the 120PS 2.3-litre motor has a reverse gear a fair bit lower than 1st.

The snag is that, if one takes the 2.3 motor as an example, there appear to be alternative final-drive ratios in some cases. So a motorhome with this engine/gearbox and the lower final-drive ratio may easily be able to climb the side of a house going backwards or forwards (see the Geist test in 01/08's CC magazine), whereas another with the same engine/gearbox, but with the higher final-drive ratio, may be far touchier when starting from rest (in either direction).

I would suggest (with some trepidation) that, where there are alternative gearbox ratios for a 'chassis' that is to be converted into a motorhome, it's up to the motorhome manufacturer to choose the version with the most suitable ratios.

Most drivers will be able to detect whether or not a vehicle's 1st and reverse gears are high. In the case of motorhomes, if these gears are high, it's going to be a never-ending bugbear as (even if there is no juddering) it's always going to put stress on the vehicle's transmission.


Andy:

You could always do what a Lotus owner did in the 1960s. Despairing of getting any joy regarding the many problems with his new car, he drove the vehicle to the Motor Show at Earls Court before it opened, parked it directly outside the main entrance, put a big placard on the windscreen listing his grievances and then immobilised the car by rapidly removing all its wheels. It got a good deal of press coverage, but I doubt it caused much positive response from Lotus who were always known for non-existent quality control. Might be worth trying on the NEC Show press day.
 
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 18 January 2008 10:54 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Hymer Exsis-i 578


The main encouragement comes from the fact that Fiat admit to there being a problem, and have invited Andy to register a formal complaint.  From Andy's description, it sounds as though some aspect of drive train, or possibly suspension, mountings works OK when absorbing the torque reactions to driving away forward, but is inadequate when doing so in reverse.

Changing the engine damping, suspension bushes, or other resilient mountings, as Clive implies, would seem the most likely solution.  However, someone at Fiat has to work out what to change, and the company then has to sanction the necessary changes.  I doubt it would result in a recall, probably, if anything at all, just a "quiet" little change when the vehicle is next being serviced.  If the owner has never mentioned the problem, it is quite possible nothing would be changed.  The lesson must be to complain to a Fiat commercial repairer.

I do wonder if this problem is recognised outside the world of motorhomes, as so many vans seem to spend most of their time very lightly loaded, whereas motorhomes are relatively heavy even when "running light".

It seems to me, assuming all the above conjecture may have some basis in fact, that the threat of publicity may wield more influence than the actual publicity.  Contact between MMM and Fiat's commercial managers, along the lines that "we are hearing increasing complaints of acute judder problems while reversing, and would like Fiat's take on the issue before publishing" might prove more productive than immediately telling all in public.  The latter course would seem to me likely to put the company into defencive mode, the former may worry them far more - because they won't know what may be said.  Fiat, and their "Sevel partners", have invested heavily in the motorhome market and won't be over anxious to get yet more bad publicity for their vans (leaks into engine bays and failing ECUs).  Ford must have made quite a hole in their traditional sales, and Renault vans are clearly selling quite well too.  The Sevel partners know they are in a fight, they must be concerned, so I think just work on those concerns for best results.

I think George needs to get busy on the phone, and start working on Fiat's worry receptors.

 
userVernon B
Posted: 18 January 2008 2:31 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Sorry to hear about your problem Andy.

I'm not wishing to get a reputation as a Fiat Apologist but I just wonder if you've inadvertently taken the transmission beyond its reasonable design capability. You talk about reversing up a "steep hill in the mountains" but haven't commented on how heavily the 'van was load at the time and how that weight was distributed.

Although a different problem I think there are similarities here with "torque steering" (well covered in other threads) which is caused when front wheel drive vans, overloaded at the rear, are attemping to apply forward traction. Some of the "hills" in "mountains" are much steeper than the eye would suggest and in these circumstances the weight transfer to the front end would be very considerable indeed - and all this applied to mechanical parts that are predominantly designed to be going forwards not backwards.

Brian K has touched on the fact that commercial vans are rarely loaded to the extent of motorhomes and I just wonder if you've exceeded the design limit. As a general rule I can't imagine that regular reversing up inclines with a full load can be any good for drive shafts, clutches or gearboxes.

OK you might argue that Fiat ought to beef everything up to accommodate such eventualities but also remember that we expect them to reduce CO2 emissions and give us more load capacity. One way of delivering all that is to shave grams from components.

Vernon


 
userRonB
Posted: 18 January 2008 1:24 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Derek

I was under the impression, mabe wrong, that the 2.2 litre engines fitted in the Sevel chassis were Ford/Iveco based engines and a different engine entirely from the Fiat Ducato?

Either way are the Ford/Iveco's also suffering this sorry state of affairs?

Ron




Edited by RonB 2008-01-18 1:25 PM
 
userClive
Posted: 18 January 2008 1:51 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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Is this a front wheel drive only problem? I am looking at a RWD Iveco??
C.
 
usermarka
Posted: 18 January 2008 6:10 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Andy

We purchased a Dethleffs Advantage (Fiat 2.3) in May 2007. From new, we have experienced juddering when reversing. Even when trying to reverse up a slight incline the juddering is very pronounced and gets steadily worse the greater the incline. The only way to over come the problem is to apply more power and fully release the clutch. However the van then becomes difficult to control, as the road speed increases.
 
userfred grant
Posted: 18 January 2008 8:58 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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AndyStothert - 2008-01-17 12:57 PM

As many of you will probably know I bought a new Fiat camper in May 2007 and it is suffering from the seemingly endemic juddering in the transmission


penberthys off from heathro on sunday - bloody glad fiat don make planes he says

flyingfred
 
usercolin
Posted: 18 January 2008 9:00 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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I have reversed a lightly loaded Citroen MWB up a steep drive several times and not noticed anything amiss, so it may be the loaded nature of a motorhome that causes it, as Fiat lauded the fact van had been designed with motorhomes in mind this is no excuse
 
userDerek Uzzell
Posted: 19 January 2008 9:22 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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RonB:

I believe that the 2.3-litre motor used in the current Fiat Ducato and the 3.0-litre motor fitted to the current Citroen Relay and Peugeot Boxer (and also to Ducato) are Iveco SOFIM power-plants produced at the Foggia plant in southern Italy.

The 2.2-litre motor used in Ducato, Relay and Boxer is often referred to as the result of a joint venture between Ford and PSA. To the best of my knowledge there is no connection whatsoever between this motor and Iveco. I've been led to believe (and I've no reason to doubt this) that the PSA element of the arrangement was primarily one of demand - essentially Ford would manufacture these motors and PSA would buy them to install in SEVEL vehicles.

As you are probably aware, this 2.2-litre motor also powers Ford Mk 7 FWD Transits. My understanding is that the motor is, in fact, a Euro 4-compliant evolution of the 2.0-litre TDCi engine used in FWD Mk 6 Transits. Apparently the most significant physical change (aside from the increase in capacity) involves the fuel high-pressure pump being moved from the front of the engine-block to the rear of the head to allow a slimmer chain run. I've also been told that the 5-speed gearbox employed on the FWD Mk 6 Transit has been carried over to the Mk 7 with just minor modifications to the gear-selection mechanism and mountings.

The ratios of the 5-speed 'box mated to this motor in SEVEL vehicles appear to differ radically from those in the Mk 7 Transit. A 6-speed 'box is fitted to 120PS versions of the 2.2-litre motor used in Boxers and Relays, but a 6-speed gearbox has yet to be available for Transits with this motor. (The recently-announced Transit 140PS version + 6-speed 'box is said to be 2 months behind schedule.) From these data, I'd take an educated guess that the transmissions fitted to SEVEL vehicles with this motor are not Ford-derived.

I don't know whether SEVEL vehicles with the 2.2-litre motor exhibit the juddering-in-reverse tendency mentioned above. If it's a SEVEL steering-geometry/engine-mounting thing then it's reasonable to assume they should. Nor do I know if Transits with this motor do it. (Andy Stothert, Brian Kirby or JudgeMental may be able to comment on this as they all have experience of Mk 7 Transit-based motorhomes with the 130PS 2.2-litre motor.)

As Andy says, the need to reverse a vehicle up a severe incline has got to be a pretty rare requirement and I can't recall ever having to do it in over 40 years of driving. (Just lucky I suppose!) There's no doubt that road vehicles are designed to go forwards and perform differently when asked to go backwards. The entrance to my home is quite sharply sloped and I have re-started my Transit Mk 6-based Hobby (2.0-litre motor) on it and reversed backwards without any unusual drive-train reactions. On these occasions the motorhome was unloaded, but I don't think that factor would have been critical. If you asked me what would have been the result if the slope had been exceptionally steep, then I would guess that (given its gearbox ratios) the vehicle wouldn't have enjoyed the challenge one little bit.
 
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 19 January 2008 1:42 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Hymer Exsis-i 578


In response to the point about juddering in reverse with my Hobby Van (Mk 7 Transit based) - no, not really.  It generally doesn't like the clutch being slipped, and will judder getting away uphill in either direction if I can't match the engine revs to the rate at which I engage the clutch.  As said before, that is a knife edge requirement, which I don't think is really relevant here.

However, this bit is relevant.  Letter to the reader's enquiries page of the December/January (no 197) edition of Le Monde du Camping-Car, liberally translated:

I own a Challenger Genesis on a Fiat 2.3 litre Multijet new in April 2007, and I have noted an fault in reverse gear.  My garage has changed the clutch, without any benefit.  He has now lodged a warranty claim with Fiat for authority to change the gearbox, without to date, any response from Fiat.  In practice my vehicle is unusable in reverse on hills of any severity, or when on either lock.  (He does not say whether full lock or less.)  Have any other readers experienced this problem?

Jean-Paul Toueri, 22 Rue Jean-Segala, 12300, Firmi.

So, it is not just the RHD versions that are affected.  The apparent absence of shrieks of protest from the white van men may indicate the problem has much to do with the weight of motorhomes relative to light vans, and seems to me to suggest some better damped engine mounts may be required.

 
usercronkle
Posted: 19 January 2008 3:33 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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My Transit Mk 7 is the 2.2 litre. The entrance to our drive is quite a slope and at a funny angle and so that I maintain traction I do reverse into it.
If I do not give it enough revs to start with I can get 'judder' but, if I give it more welly the problem goes away.
I would agree, it is a sensitive clutch but, as we discussed in the thread about these vehicles stalling easily, my experience is that it required a change in driving style when I changed from a Fiat 1.9.TDI.

Edited by cronkle 2008-01-19 3:34 PM
 
userClive
Posted: 19 January 2008 1:44 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


Stalwart

Posts: 3138
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Location: New Milton


In the good old days reverse gear ratio was even lower than 1st. On very steep hills vehicles used to reverse up them.

 
userfred grant
Posted: 19 January 2008 8:00 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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can us get back to the original thred my ansums. andy the stothart was talking about new fiat not TRANSIT fur eavens sake. i is interested as me an alices farm as sum very steep ingradients and us as sum knowledge of climbing slopes both frontwards and backwards with our various tractors and other equipment. Sum of our tractors is actually made in the fiat factorys serprisinly. Anyway, all white van men that delivers ere are nearly always overloaded both coming ere and goin back. no names but us can assure forum members that white men would lose money if they ad no load in their white boxes. the fuller the better my biddies! a 3.5 ton van is just that - a van for pullin 3.5 tons constantly and safely - so a motorhome weghin say 3.2 tons will av a far lesser and more contant life than most white van mens vans whose will vary from 3 tons to 3.9 tonnes eapecially if hes not caught by the thorities.

foodferthotfred
 
usercronkle
Posted: 19 January 2008 8:35 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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fred grant - 2008-01-19 8:00 PM

can us get back to the original thred my ansums. andy the stothart was talking about new fiat not TRANSIT fur eavens sake. i is interested as me an alices farm as sum very steep ingradients and us as sum knowledge of climbing slopes both frontwards and backwards with our various tractors and other equipment. Sum of our tractors is actually made in the fiat factorys serprisinly. Anyway, all white van men that delivers ere are nearly always overloaded both coming ere and goin back. no names but us can assure forum members that white men would lose money if they ad no load in their white boxes. the fuller the better my biddies! a 3.5 ton van is just that - a van for pullin 3.5 tons constantly and safely - so a motorhome weghin say 3.2 tons will av a far lesser and more contant life than most white van mens vans whose will vary from 3 tons to 3.9 tonnes eapecially if hes not caught by the thorities.

foodferthotfred


Transit and fiat engine are one and the same if I read derek Uzzell's post correctly.

Edited by cronkle 2008-01-19 8:40 PM
 
userMaubern
Posted: 19 January 2008 11:36 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Hi Andy
We bought an Ace Firenze in October 2007 on a 130 Fiat Multijet We live in the Vallies in South Wales ( On a hill) . And we have sever reversing problems. We took it to the local Fiat dealer who said the engine mountings needed chainging which they did but it was still the same. We took it out for a test drive and they said it was as good as we were going to get. We took it back to the dealers who are Discover in Newport the manager drove it and agreed there was a problem with it so kept it on his premises to investigate. He had someone frome Swift to test it and they also agreed there was something wrong with it so they made arrangements with someone frome Fiat to come and test it. The fiat rep/engineer fail to reverse twice up the hill on the third time he changed his tecqunice and reverce it up over 3,000 reves which he said was acceptial. We did not agree with this so we are now in the situation where we are about to change it for an Auto Trail on a Mercedes chassis at a considerable loss to us

 
userMaubern
Posted: 19 January 2008 11:42 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Posts: 1

Hi Andy
We bought an Ace Firenze in October 2007 on a 130 Fiat Multijet We live in the Vallies in South Wales ( On a hill) . And we have sever reversing problems. We took it to the local Fiat dealer who said the engine mountings needed chainging which they did but it was still the same. We took it out for a test drive and they said it was as good as we were going to get. We took it back to the dealers who are Discover in Newport the manager drove it and agreed there was a problem with it so kept it on his premises to investigate. He had someone frome Swift to test it and they also agreed there was something wrong with it so they made arrangements with someone frome Fiat to come and test it. The fiat rep/engineer fail to reverse twice up the hill on the third time he changed his tecqunice and reverce it up over 3,000 reves which he said was acceptial. We did not agree with this so we are now in the situation where we are about to change it for an Auto Trail on a Mercedes chassis at a considerable loss to us
 
userDerek Uzzell
Posted: 20 January 2008 8:50 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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fred grant:

Early in Andy Stothert's initial posting he opined that the juddering-in-reverse phenomenon appeared to be endemic to New Ducato. Andy's (unidentified) motorhome has a 2.3-litre motor/6-speed gearbox power-train and RonB subsequently inquired whether SEVEL chassis fitted with the 2.2-litre motor exhibited similar unwelcome characteristics. The 2.2-litre motor fitted to current SEVEL vehicles is also used in the Mk 7 FWD Transit and motorhomes based on this Ford chassis were known to be owned by several forum contributors.

It's admittedly rough science to compare the reversing performance of a Ford Transit with a Fiat Ducato (or Citroen/Peugeot clone) purely on the basis that they have a motor in common. Nevertheless, I still think the exercise was useful as potential buyers of FWD Transit Mk 7-based motorhomes can now be fairly confident that (with a degree of delicacy when matching clutch take-up to engine revs) the vehicles should be manageable when reversing up steep inclines.

While the Transit-related comments may, perhaps justifiably, be considered to be 'off topic', I'm going to suggest to you (with all due respect) that they are more 'topical' than observations on stomach maladies and Fiat agricultural equipment.
 
userchas
Posted: 20 January 2008 10:35 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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On a lighter note, Fiat being italian built, seems strange that their WW2 tanks had 6 reverse gears, or so I am lead to believe, and they had no problems sorry, its this damm wet weather !

Edited by chas 2008-01-20 10:36 AM
 
userSyd
Posted: 20 January 2008 11:26 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Location: Sunderland


It is interesting to note that one has to carefully match engine rev's with clutch bite in order to get away cleanly.
I always thought vehicles were designed to be easy to drive.
Since when have vehicle manufacturers been making vehicles where one has to learn to drive again in order to pull away cleanly??
Even the famous "T" Ford didnt have half the problems mentioned here

Where would we be without this "progress"
 
usercronkle
Posted: 20 January 2008 11:54 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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When I say that I changed my driving style to compensate for the clutch I wouldn't want people to think that it was too dramatic. I just accepted it as the consequence of moving from one vehicle to another and hadn't thought it significant until the various discussion threads came up. Some clutches are more sensitive than others.
Equally, this level of clutch variation does not seem to be the issue with the current Ducato etc.
 
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 20 January 2008 3:15 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Hymer Exsis-i 578


Syd - 2008-01-20 11:26 AM It is interesting to note that one has to carefully match engine rev's with clutch bite in order to get away cleanly. I always thought vehicles were designed to be easy to drive. Since when have vehicle manufacturers been making vehicles where one has to learn to drive again in order to pull away cleanly?? Even the famous "T" Ford didnt have half the problems mentioned here Where would we be without this "progress"

You ever driven a "T" Syd??  The experience might alter that opinion a bit! 

 
userSyd
Posted: 20 January 2008 4:31 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Location: Sunderland


Yes the "T" was sharp but it didn't come with the costs and "sophisticated" deveolpment that we are supposed to be provided with these days.

How do these pretty awful faults get past their development engineers during their testing

 
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 20 January 2008 5:05 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Hymer Exsis-i 578


Syd - 2008-01-20 4:31 PM ........... How do these pretty awful faults get past their development engineers during their testing

I bet there are a few people at Fiat asking that as well!

However, the normal approach to the test hill is forward.  Maybe no-one has yet thought about trying it is reverse.  I wonder if it will be added to the standard test routine in future?

 
userJudgeMental
Posted: 20 January 2008 5:34 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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Syd - 2008-01-20 4:31 PM

How do these pretty awful faults get past their development engineers during their testing



test/engineer? probably of on holiday.....

Tata nano the new model T

I have been watching the reported problems with new Fiats on a number of forums. MHF has one thread with over 50000 hits and over 1000 contributions.

was fully intending to go for a euramobil terrestra on fiat next, but will probably forget about that now and stick with Henry



Edited by JudgeMental 2008-01-20 5:34 PM
 
userTracker
Posted: 20 January 2008 6:04 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


I believe they call it cost to benefit ratio?

If it will cost more to re-engineer parts from the existing 'parts bin', or to create new parts specifically - apart from than those planned as part of the original design - someone with a degree in accountancy will look at the sums and say 'NO - it will suffice as is'.

Until enough people campaign to get things changed such that the cost to benefit ratio alters, that is to say they start to seriously lose sales, then nothing will happen.

They will try to avoid recalls like the plague as recalls cost lots of money and lose credibility - without any perceived benefit to the manufacturer.

It will be a bloody long time - might even have to wait for the mid life face lift - before I even consider buying a new Sevel based 'van!

Edited by Tracker 2008-01-20 6:05 PM
 
userbigal55
Posted: 20 January 2008 8:16 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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Tracker - 2008-01-20 6:04 PM

I believe they call it cost to benefit ratio?

If it will cost more to re-engineer parts from the existing 'parts bin', or to create new parts specifically - apart from than those planned as part of the original design - someone with a degree in accountancy will look at the sums and say 'NO - it will suffice as is'.

Until enough people campaign to get things changed such that the cost to benefit ratio alters, that is to say they start to seriously lose sales, then nothing will happen.

They will try to avoid recalls like the plague as recalls cost lots of money and lose credibility - without any perceived benefit to the manufacturer.

It will be a bloody long time - might even have to wait for the mid life face lift - before I even consider buying a new Sevel based 'van!
i agree, when i was trying to get an answer on the water ingress problem, i was told by a independant fiat m/home specialist.
quote "fiat seem to be taking the AMC approach, exploding fuel tanks,cheaper to pay compensation to a few incinerated people than fixing millions of cars.
as you say until the cost of lost sales outways the cost of repairs nothing will be done,i don,t think fiat are alone in this, it,s standard business practice for large corporations.
i hope fiats spares supply improve, i,ve been waiting for a E.G.R. valve for 3months
 
userClive
Posted: 20 January 2008 11:17 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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Sorry Chas I am advised you are wrong,
Aparently Italian tanks had the gearbox fitted backwards by design for self preservation. There was no effective forward gear at all!




Edited by Clive 2008-01-20 11:17 AM
 
userClive
Posted: 20 January 2008 5:16 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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"T" Before my time!.
 
userSyd
Posted: 20 January 2008 8:40 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Clive - 2008-01-20 5:16 PM

"T" Before my time!.


Before your time eh Clive
It was my first car ha
 
usercolin
Posted: 20 January 2008 7:44 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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Fiat etc. seem not to realise that there is such a thing as the Internet, if they did then there might be some sensible answers from them for problems like this. As someone that is about to buy a new van I see a thread such as this and think 'hold on' do I realy want to buy a Fiat, for a small comprimise on width I can get a similier layout on a Master base, and of cause for those getting a coach built then there is proboly not any compromise to be made.
A rough calc shows Fiat believe it is aceptable that a van should be reversed up a slope at a minimum of 13mph with clutch out, this is ridiculas.
 
userdshague
Posted: 20 January 2008 7:51 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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help here please is there a problem or what .been out to day and looking at spending 40k fiat 103 2.3 multijet  6 speed lunar goldstar 620 ...whats the 5 speed 100 like if we get a smaller van say 580 moonstar any advice please .   thanks
 
userfred grant
Posted: 20 January 2008 8:27 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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ow a 2.3 litre fiat going backwards can get confused with a 2.2 litre ford going forwards is beyond me derk and fellow forum members,

if us all kept to the thread than it mite offer the stoth sum help. as it is he don know weather he is coming or going my ansums. having to av a new gearbox fitted everytime he goes backwards up a slope is no jokin matter.

im off to write to wotchdig as this is gettin beyond a joke.

fieryfred
 
usercolin
Posted: 20 January 2008 9:14 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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Not that it has any relavence to this thread, but, a T going up or down long inclines has problems with either oil starvation or over oiling of engine due to it being splash oil feed, I wouldn't be overly woried about a gearbox failure as we have 2 spare boxes at work, but a Ton Truck T can travel a damn sight slower in reverse than the 13mph recommended by Fiat.
Here's one I made earlier on a car chassis, also built one on a Ton Truck chassis
http://www.skysportengineering.co.uk/hucks_video.html
 
userMike P
Posted: 21 January 2008 3:59 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Bet that gets exciting if they forget to chock the wheels of the plane!
Mike P
 
userMike P
Posted: 21 January 2008 4:03 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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colin - 2008-01-20 9:14 PM

Not that it has any relavence to this thread, but, a T going up or down long inclines has problems with either oil starvation or over oiling of engine due to it being splash oil feed, I wouldn't be overly woried about a gearbox failure as we have 2 spare boxes at work, but a Ton Truck T can travel a damn sight slower in reverse than the 13mph recommended by Fiat.
Here's one I made earlier on a car chassis, also built one on a Ton Truck chassis
http://www.skysportengineering.co.uk/hucks_video.html


Bet that gets exciting if the forget to chock the plane wheels!
Mike P
 
userMaubern
Posted: 20 January 2008 9:37 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Have any one had an independant engineres report done on the reverse gear
we did query it the cost was £275. then we saw the Auto trail on the mercedes and decided to go for that
 
usercolin
Posted: 20 January 2008 9:52 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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Maubern - 2008-01-20 9:37 PM

Have any one had an independant engineres report done on the reverse gear
we did query it the cost was £275. then we saw the Auto trail on the mercedes and decided to go for that

You say you are changing at considerable cost to yourselves due to the reverse problem WHY? you say Fiat local agent, motorhome agent and swift's agree there is a problem, but only one Fiat person disagrees. Take it back to whomever you brought it from and ask for a full refund, or do you mean the new van costs more?
 
userClive
Posted: 20 January 2008 10:51 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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Our Autotrail on a Merc has been with us over 10 years now. Cannot knock it. To me its just as good as when it was new, silky and relaxing to drive, Pokey heater and being as it had stronger rear springs from the outset we have never suffered the "wallowing on corners" that some refer to when comparing it to the wider tracked Fiat/Alko. It will WELL exceeeeeed the speed limit. I lifted offf once on the M1 having passed a string of lorries when the wife pointed out that the dial said 90. oops! Only a powerful musslebike passed me at the same time. And is a pre-common rail 2.9 litre 5 pot.
Normally I am much more sedate.

 
userMaubern
Posted: 21 January 2008 2:27 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
New User

Posts: 37
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The dealer told us that as the Fiat rep/engineer actually reversed up the hill on the third attempt with revs of 3000 the fiat would actually reverse so he wasn't prepared to suppliment Fiats warranty and also said how far do you reverse anyway. The Auto Trail did cost more but we still lost mony on the ACE.
Maureen
 
userTracker
Posted: 21 January 2008 4:08 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


Maubern - 2008-01-21 2:27 PM

The dealer told us that as the Fiat rep/engineer actually reversed up the hill on the third attempt with revs of 3000 the fiat would actually reverse so he wasn't prepared to suppliment Fiats warranty and also said how far do you reverse anyway. The Auto Trail did cost more but we still lost mony on the ACE.
Maureen


If I caught someone using 3000 rpm to reverse my van up a slope I would have more than a few harsh words to say to them - mainly regarding clutch longevity.

I was taught, many years ago admittedly, never to 'race' an engine as it tends to shorten their longevity as engines are designed to only pull higher revs when under load.

These teachings may be considered rubbish in today's throw away world, but in 47 years of driving I have NEVER burnt out a clutch or damaged an engine or gearbox.

It works for me!
 
userfred grant
Posted: 21 January 2008 7:43 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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tracker is rite me ansums. But the whole point of the original thread is gearboxes and clutches/ and or final drives. so the fact that 2.2 fiat engins are the same as 2.2 ford engines (allegidly) as nowt to do with it as ford and fiat will most likely be using their own gearboxes and clutch final drives. cast yer minds back to the mid nineties my biddies when renault masters had fiat 2.8 engines. the reason that renots had no gearbox fifth gear problems was that renots used their own gearbox, clutch and final drive (probably made of metal).

bloodthirstyfred
 
usertp002c784tp002c784tp
Posted: 21 January 2008 8:21 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


Regular Visitor

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Location: Tyne & Wear Fiat Lunar Roadstar 620 2007 2.8tdi


I went to the York Motorhome show in September armed with the insurance money of my much loved Renault Master Lunar Telstar dearley hoping to buy another Renault, But I could not find anything that suited us both on a Renault.

I ended up buying a Fiat Ducato Lunar Roadstar, this vehicle is new but the much tried and tested previous Fiat, we did see a few new models on the new Fiat and with a little bit of scrimping could have bought one of these vehicles. But there is no way that I would have even considered buying any of these vehicles until Fiat have sorted all the problems out.

Three dealers that I spoke to said they had never heard of water ingress in the engine compartments what a load of twaddle

Terry
 
usertonyishuk
Posted: 21 January 2008 9:44 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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Am I worring to much or are the prices on new motorhomes of the current vintage going to crash due to the lack of support from Fiat/Peugot once the warrenty runs out ?

I have definately got a feeling that Mercedes may be a vehicle of choice when we change.


Rgds

Edited by tonyishuk 2008-01-21 9:45 PM
 
userMike H
Posted: 21 January 2008 10:17 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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I have, today, sent a recorded letter to MD of Fiat UK. Telling him of the problems, myself and others are having with our new Ducatos, whilst trying to reverse especially when going up an incline.
I asked when and what Fiat were going to do to rectify this problem, so that we can get on with enjoying our motorcaravans, as they were intended, and not having to worry about where we go in case we might have to reverse, which I found impossible on one ocassion. I said that one of his representatives had tested a faulty van, and said it was OK if it was reversed at 3000 revs, I said that I rarely get to 3000 revs going forward, and thought that it was'nt a proper solution to the problem.
I will keep you updated when I receive his reply.
Mike H.
 
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 22 January 2008 12:21 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Hymer Exsis-i 578


Mike H - 2008-01-21 10:17 PM ............... I said that one of his representatives had tested a faulty van, and said it was OK if it was reversed at 3000 revs, I said that I rarely get to 3000 revs going forward, and thought that it was'nt a proper solution to the problem. ....... Mike H.

Mike

Purely on the point of using the engine revs, and without reference to which way you are travelling at the time (though hopefully forward!), I think it is better to use the revs than not. 

It is dangerous to generalise but, many, if not most, of these engines develop their maximum torque between, roughly, 2,000 and 4,000 rpm.  That is quite a narrow band.  Generally speaking, it is only within this rev range that they are at their most efficient, so giving best mpg.  Changing up before you hit 3,000 rpm, is likely to result in the next gear being engaged at somewhat below 2,000, leading to the engine labouring as it tries to get back to the top of its torque curve. 

Once the engine has covered a few thousand miles, therefore, but especially if going uphill, it is generally better to let the revs build before the upshift rather than to snatch an early change.  It is also better to keep the revs higher under a light throttle than to keep them down, and then have to use more throttle to maintain road-speed. 

The main reason is that with electronic control of injection, the torque curves rather resemble a cliff below 2,000 rpm, and all power falls away very sharply.  I do not mean to imply that racing around everywhere at 4,000 rpm is good; just that those revs are all very much there to be used.  After all, 4,000 rpm is hardly high revving: the engine will happily run to much higher revs than that and you're nowhere near flirting with the governed maximum permissible revs.  There is a danger that in trying to be kind, one is actually being cruel.

 
userMike H
Posted: 24 January 2008 4:51 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Brian.
Following what you said about using the revs, I agree it is better to keep the revs up in a lower gear than throttle down, in a higher one. I took my van out for a run yesterday and I get up to about 2800 revs in third and fourth, and that is enough to get into the fifties and then changed into fifth and sixth without any labouring, then settled down to 60, which I normally travel at. Mind you that was on a straight level road, on hills, would probably need to go over 3000 to get to the same speed.
After reading euroserv and Derek's postings about the DMF flywheel, (don't they mean MDF), does this mean that this is the cause of the juddering in reverse? and if Fiat change the flywheel to a solid metal one, it will cure this problem? Some owners have had the starter motor replaced already, is this because of the water ingress dripping onto it or is it the metal particles coming off the DMF flywheel already? Mike.

Edited by Mike H 2008-01-24 4:52 PM
 
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 24 January 2008 6:22 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Hymer Exsis-i 578


Mike

Sorry - wasn't trying to teach Granddad to suck eggs!  It was just that some folk do seem still to think diesels shouldn't be revved, and from your comment I'd thought you may be one of they.

I gather that with a "normal" clutch and a solid flywheel, there are springs in the clutch plate, near its centre, that transmit the power from the engine to the gearbox input shaft.  The springs allow sufficient "give" in the driveline to absorb harshness and snatches.  With a dual-mass flywheel these springs are omitted from the clutch plate but are now installed in the flywheel, near its periphery.  The springs still have the same functionality but, being sited on the larger radius of the flywheel periphery, I suspect will be much "softer", and so will tend to have longer travel, than could be accommodated near the centre of the clutch plate.

I'm no mechanical engineer, but it seems to me that these longer, softer, springs probably have more harmonics to play with than the short, tough, springs they have replaced.  From the comments already made re DMFs, I think there will need to be more attention paid to damping so that the bounce - rebound tendency of the springs is better controlled than with the present generation. 

Since several people have commented on strange smells coming from their clutches when manoeuvring at the recommended high revs, you may well be right about medium density fibreboard clutches.

On your other points, I don't know, but maybe someone else does.

 
userAndyStothert
Posted: 24 January 2008 8:25 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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From Andy Stothert, email address - andystothert@blueyonder.co.uk

Mike,
At last, someone monitoring this 'forum' who has a relevant interest in it. all the rest just seem to be just sounding of for the sake of it.

I will be very interested to know what response you get from Fiat as I 'm struggling to get any. I do have a letter in my posession which almost (but only almost) admits they have problem and that theyr are attempting to find a solution. But it could all be purely bulls**t. After having had a gerabox fail immediately after reversing up a steep hill we KNOW they have a problem, but have now adopted a stratagey of not driving the place wherte thsi may occur.
I am contemplating distributing a couple of thousand leaflets at the NEC show warning potential buyers of the fault and doing it very publicly too. I would welcome your thoughts on this.
Anyway keep me posted how you are going on and if you can give me your email address I wil let you know if anything develops here.
Cheers
Andy
 
usercolin
Posted: 24 January 2008 9:48 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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AndyStothert - 2008-01-24 8:25 PM

From Andy Stothert, email address - andystothert@blueyonder.co.uk

At last, someone monitoring this 'forum' who has a relevant interest in it. all the rest just seem to be just sounding of for the sake of it.

Andy

How to make friends and influence people! I would sugest you reread the posts and then engage your brain.
 
userDerek Uzzell
Posted: 25 January 2008 8:23 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Location: Herefordshire


I agree with bob b's and colin's opinions of Andy Stothert's dismissive comment. Anyone posting to a forum and not wishing a general conversation to develop should say so in the first place, otherwise it's inevitable that focus will shift.

The following 'reversing' observation appears on page 168 of MMM February 2008 in the test report of an East Neuk panel-van conversion based on a new SWB Fiat Ducato with 2.2-litre 100PS motor:

"My wife Rona also found that the Ducato would reverse quite happily up the steep hill from Crail harbour, unlike our long wheelbase old model, which is a pig in such situations."

Make of it what you will - I've lost interest.
 
userTracker
Posted: 25 January 2008 9:42 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


AndyStothert - 2008-01-24 8:25 PM

From Andy Stothert, email address - andystothert@blueyonder.co.uk

At last, someone monitoring this 'forum' who has a relevant interest in it. all the rest just seem to be just sounding of for the sake of it.
Andy


Hardly the kind of comment to aim at the very people who help pay your wages is it Andy?

I accept that you are probably pissed off but don't take it out on us please.
 
useronecal
Posted: 29 January 2008 12:06 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


500100100100


Mike
Sorry to here about your clutch problems, You are one of manny.Just a few questions so as I might be able to advise you later on.
Does it judder in first gear if you pull away slowly.
Can you here a squeeling sound as you pull away.
The year of your Ducato and milage.
When you are reversing have the bonnet open and get an assistant to look and see is the engine moving a lot.
Try this going forward in first with your assistant at the side and looking out for you. (not on public road)
As Brian has pointed out harmonics do come into play with D.M.F.
As Euroserv has also pointed out when they do go, Trouble.
Electronics can also cause some of the above as well. (EGR valve)
Hope I can be of help later on,
Regards,
Brendan.
PS You can PM if you want.
 
userMaubern
Posted: 21 January 2008 11:07 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
New User

Posts: 37
25
Location: South Wales


Please keep us informed although we are changing ours on Saturday for a Merc engine
 
userDerek Uzzell
Posted: 22 January 2008 9:47 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
50002000200010025
Location: Herefordshire


Just to add a little extra doom and gloom to this debate, if the only realistic way to overcome the juddering-in-reverse phenomenon turns out to be to use plenty of engine-revs and 'ride' the clutch, then there's likely to be a significant bill to pay in the not too distant future.

In recent years diesel-engine designers have increasingly begun to choose a dual-mass flywheel (DMF) instead of the traditional single-mass flywheel (SMF). A DMF acts as an effective vibration damper at low engine revolutions and is one of the reasons why modern diesel motors are so much more civilised than their predecessors, particularly at tick-over. The downside of a DMF is its complexity and consequential cost, and the fact that it is (to all intents and purposes) irreparable.

With a SMF, if a clutch failed or wore out, even if the flywheel's face had received minor damage, it was sometimes possible to rectify this and, should repair of a SMF flywheel prove impossible, replacement was normally not prohibitively expensive. Conversely, if a DMF becomes damaged it will need to be replaced and the cost will be considerably dearer. My understanding is that all motors used in current-model SEVEL vehicles employ a DMF.

From what has already been said, I suspect that much of the difficulty being experienced is down to owner-drivers' attitude to 'abuse'. There's plenty of evidence that fairly heavy modern motorhomes with fairly small-capacity (but powerful) diesel engines and fairly high gearing demand a dose of revs to ensure that they move off cleanly forwards when stopped on an incline. Logically, this will also be true when reversing from a standing-start up a hill. The snag is that, when reversing, the driver usually wants to do it slowly and with finesse, and this is very hard to achieve if the vehicle can't be driven in that manner without revving the motor hard and using the clutch as a torque-converter. It's doubtful that any experienced driver with an ounce of mechanical sympathy will wish to use this technique with their own vehicle (or, as Tracker says, be happy for someone else to use it), but it may well be the only realistic way to get the vehicle moving without causing the engine/gearbox unit to jump about. Personally, I don't think there's an acceptable solution to this, but it will intriguing to see what Fiat say.
 
usereuroserv
Posted: 23 January 2008 2:25 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
Stalwart

Posts: 1116
1000100
Location: Leicester


As a vehicle rental firm in Leicester that only buys Fiat and Iveco vehicles, we have so far purchased about 20 2006 Ducato vans, mostly 2.3 engines and a couple of 3.0

We have noticed the vibration and judder of which you speak on the 2.3 but not the 3.0 probably due to the larger clutch and flywheel used.

Some of the early vans have now covered 35 to 40000 miles and there have been no cases of failure or complaints of worsening symptoms.

This is an unfortunate characteristic of the Dual Mass Flywheel that is more pronounced on front wheel drive vehicles than rear. DMF's have been an absolute nightmare for ALL makes of commercial vehicles. I believe it was Mercedes that started the ball rolling with Ford quickly following. While they do improve comfort and refinement they also cause headaches. When DMF's start to fail, they deposit metal filings in starter motors and this can contaminate gearboxes as well. This is a well documented problem with RWD Ford Transits, but I must stress that across the very wide variety of customer vehicles that we have repaired in our workshops, all manufacturers have suffered similar problems and while I wish that our new Fiats were arriving with solid flywheels, I do not expect our experiences with these vehicles to be any worse than we have seen on others; quite the reverse in fact as there should be progress being made with the design of DMF's on each successive new vehicle.
 
userDerek Uzzell
Posted: 23 January 2008 6:55 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
50002000200010025
Location: Herefordshire


For the record, I understand that the DMF on Ford Transits can be replaced with a 'solid' flywheel. (I'm guessing that this is practicable because the motors of Mk 6 Transits initially had a SMF before subsequently moving to a DMF.)
 
userbob b
Posted: 24 January 2008 8:38 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
Stalwart

Posts: 1176
1000100252525
Location: Horsham West Sussex. 2003 Fiat Rapido 2.3 jtd 709F


Andy,
Very gracious !! Please don't forget all the people "sounding off" are actually on your side !!





 
userflicka
Posted: 24 January 2008 9:08 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


Stalwart

Posts: 3675
20001000500100252525
Location: NE Lincolnshire - M/H - 2012 Adria Sport S572SL


I think all this talk regarding the problems with the new Sevel breed of Van highlights the old addage, regarding not buying the new model too soon.
This is particularly relevant when there was so much pressue applied to ensure the new model was "on the market" to meet the Euro IV deadline.
It has to be remembered that the new model was totally new, body, engine, drivetrain, etc.. From what I can determine there are only minor or peripheral item carried over from the previous model.

It is often better to let the manufacturers' get their new model in actual operation with Commercial users, who will generally give it a hard life and effectively do the "Road" testing for them.

Strange though, that there seems a lack of comment regarding the new Ford Transit, Mercedes, VW Grafter, etc.,
Or have I spoken too soon ?
 
userClive
Posted: 24 January 2008 10:52 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


Stalwart

Posts: 3138
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Location: New Milton


Come on Colin, The poor bloke is at his wits end. Don,t brissle!

 
userdikyenfo
Posted: 25 January 2008 11:43 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


Regular Visitor

Posts: 242
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My 2.3 is ok so far [5700 miles] but had awful judder with the Tranny years ago and changed the 6-spring clutch for an 8-spring clutch plate and it worked a treat afterwards with no judder and much smoother operation. I have an older iveco and that is ok at 50000 miles
 
userrossko
Posted: 25 January 2008 4:49 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
New User

Posts: 64
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Have just returned from our dealers to discuss yet again the reversing problem, the water ingress, & to arrange a replacement headlight unit which constantly has condensation in. We were advised to lodge a formal complaint with fiat about the reverse gear as their only solution was to keep the revs up. We had had the water ingress 'fix' done previously but were keen to ask about the engine, starter motor, windscreen wiper motor & abs motor covers that Geoff Cole said he has had fitted. Our dealer says these parts are available but we had to purchase them, they are not fitted as part of the recall. Could those on this forum that have had them fitted confirm whether this is the case & they have purchased them please. We will be writing to fiat this weekend about their general lack of solutions for our problems & will willingly join any campaign to bring them to the attention of a wider audience.
 
userExustrek
Posted: 25 January 2008 7:37 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


Visitor

Posts: 81
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Location: Motorhome = 2007 Dethleffs Advantage A 6971 SG


rossko - 2008-01-25 4:49 PM

Could those on this forum that have had them fitted confirm whether this is the case & they have purchased them please.QUOTE]


Rossko

The following recall codes are listed on the jobsheet for the work we had done last November, all at no cost to us. Our van is booked in for it's first annual service at the end of next month & we're having the engine cover fitted at the same time (again, no cost) these were not available for the 3.0l engines early November.

Work done to reseal the scuttle etc is not listed on the jobsheet, i can only guess as to why not.

I’ll be discussing reverse gear with them on the day.

Fiat recall codes :
5219 Steering rack lubrication
5221 Injector corrosion protection
5222 ABS control unit cover
5223 Wiper motor water ingress
5247 ECU flash update
5248 Incorrect starter fuse

Bryan
 
userGeoff Cole
Posted: 25 January 2008 9:33 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
Regular Visitor

Posts: 276
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Location: Isle of Man & France Central Vauxhall Vivaro


I have answered rossko's question about being charged for rubber bits on this forum under Fiat Recalls in some detail, but the items fitted on recalls should be provided and fitted free.
Some info about the othe recalls.
The ECU Flash update is to do with the EGR Valve, its to try to reduce the failure of this component. IF it goes faulty, the injector failure sytem light (orange) comes on and the engine runs on reduced performance)
The starter fuse replacement was to fit a higher rated fuse for some reason.
 
userwebbocj
Posted: 26 January 2008 5:47 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
Visitor

Posts: 120
100
Location: South Yorkshire


on hols. in India at the momment but "keeping in touch" via the internet I experienced the judder when reversing up the slightest of incline, reported to dealer, who said that you could not slip the clutch (fully in or out) I had to accept that he was right but how embarasing when on a site. The thing is that new models and updates happen so rapidly that the only way the dealer can gain knowledge of your model, is to almost practice on your machine. Without this forum I would not be aware of ANY problems, no contact from either Fiat or dealer. I feal that if you don't have problems you are really lucky, problems seem to be the norm. If its your model, it really hurts and some of the generalised comments dont make matters any better. The manufacturers in the attempt to be 1st with ideas cut corners in testing(R&D) the dealers stay stum(keeping lucrative profit margins) & the mags. try to keep a balance of sales and free motors to play with. It really gets my blood boiling, worse than talking to a politician
I,m so fed up, i'd better have a swim & sunbathe sum more, trouble is i have to come home to face the nightmare, unless it's got stolen!! that WOULD solve the problem
 
userAndyStothert
Posted: 26 January 2008 3:28 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
Permanent Fixture

Posts: 554
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Greetings all,
Apparently I've pissed a few folk off with my dismissal of all the irrelevant 'stuff' which appeared on the forum as a result of my original warnings about the new Fiat.
This wasn't my intention. Usually it is when I do, but in this case it wasn't. This is my first experience of any kind of 'forum' and I didn't realise that it is, basically, a talking shop. I was mistakenly looking for action rather than talk. I didn't even know how to edit the soddin' messages and eliminate my numerous tryping errers.
Mainly I was worried that all the not-so-closely-associated conversation (perhaps clumsily referrred to as 'irrelevant') might dilute or drown the orginal warning, and that folk would have to wade through all kind of advice not really to the point. And thus may lose interest, or miss it altogether. The way the forum is set up (last messagre first without the original anywhere in sight) makes this quite likely.
Can I just reiterate that the reversing 'problem' may become an expensive liability when these vehicles are out of warranty, unless, like us, you test it to destruction on a Welsh mountainside. Most drivers probably won't find themselves in this extreme situation very often (or at all?) but it only takes once.
Anyway my apologies to all those sensitive souls who too umbridge at my dismissal of their efforts as being irrelevant - blame it on frustration (with Fiat) and ignorance of the Forum system if you could. I know the score now so if this matter rumbles on in forum terms I shall be more specific about what we're trying to achieve.

Cheers, Grumpy (but only backwards) of Lancs.

P.S. Can anyone experiencing this juddering in reverse who isn't happy with the explanations from Fiat please email me on: andystotert@blueyonder.co.uk
If I get enough replies (apparently 20 is the magic number) I will see what kind of legal or pressure group muscle we have as a group rather than individuals working in ignorance of each other.
 
usercolin
Posted: 26 January 2008 7:40 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


Stalwart

Posts: 5592
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Location: Bedfordshire, Globecar 636SB


AndyStothert - 2008-01-26 3:28 PM
email me on: andystotert@blueyonder.co.uk
If I get enough replies (apparently 20 is the magic number) I will see what kind of legal or pressure group muscle we have as a group rather than individuals working in ignorance of each other.

Now that is a worthwhile posting! almost missed it at bottom so have 'quoted' it to highlight to others.
 
userMike H
Posted: 29 January 2008 2:06 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
Visitor

Posts: 92
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Location: Sandy.Beds.08 Starspirit


AndyStothert - 2008-01-26 3:28 PM

Just posting part of Andy's last post, to top of page.

P.S. Can anyone experiencing this juddering in reverse who isn't happy with the explanations from Fiat please email me on: andystotert@blueyonder.co.uk
If I get enough replies (apparently 20 is the magic number) I will see what kind of legal or pressure group muscle we have as a group rather than individuals working in ignorance of each other.
 
userAndyStothert
Posted: 29 January 2008 5:06 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
Permanent Fixture

Posts: 554
5002525


Re this I typed the email address incorrectly ( I can't even spell my own name when a keyboard is involved):

It should read
andystothert@blueyonder.co.uk

Useless, absolutely useless.
 
userDerek Uzzell
Posted: 29 January 2008 6:53 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
50002000200010025
Location: Herefordshire


Andy:

If you go to the area towards the top-right of the screen headed "Welcome, AndyStothert" and select "Control Panel", you can enter your e-mail address and tick the box below titled "Is your e-mail publically viewable?" This will cause an e-mail 'button' to appear in the bottom-left corner of all your postings (including earlier ones) and anyone clicking on this button will access your e-mail address. (See Mike H's posting two back from this as an example.) Might be useful if you want feedback about the juddering.
 
userkelly58
Posted: 29 January 2008 7:10 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


Stalwart

Posts: 2099
2000252525
Location: South Lincs Autotrail Tracker RS


To check VOSA recalls look at www.vosa.gov.uk/vosa/apps/recalls/default.asp then type in make model and date of build.
 
userClive
Posted: 26 January 2008 3:46 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


Stalwart

Posts: 3138
2000100010025
Location: New Milton


Good luck Andy,
Everybody has a viewpoint and most (including me) give it on this forum. But I agree about the format, the old MMM forum was soo much simpler.

But the warning is quite clear regarding the new Fiat gearbox. If you want to ensure it doesn,t let you down somewhere up a mountain and outside warranty than EMAIL ANDY NOW so that sufficient pressure can be applied to Fiat to implement a proper cure and not a continuation of lame excuses.

If they say its not suitable for motorhomes then they must say this loud a clearly to the converters.

Clive
 
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 26 January 2008 5:20 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


50005000100010025
Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Hymer Exsis-i 578


It does sound as though it would be in the interests of anyone who owns one of the new Sevel vans to drive it to a hill somewhere, engage reverse gear, and try it out.  It may well be too late if you discover you have the Stothert curse just after your warranty expires!  The worst that can happen is you'll find out: then you can join forces with Andy.

Off topic, but is anyone else finding that bleedin' "Perfect Pitch" animation (just to the right of the screen) is pinching all their bandwidth and slowing the whole site down?

 
userTracker
Posted: 26 January 2008 5:25 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


I thought the perfect pitch was an advert for a golf course!

My perfect pitch don't move 'cos I've got all the animations turned off because they are a continual pain in the bum!
 
userRoamer
Posted: 26 January 2008 6:46 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
Visitor

Posts: 76
252525
Location: Worcestershire


Hi All

I was following the reversing problem before we went away with our 3.0ltr (160) version earlier this week. On leaving I carried out a test reverse on our steep front drive and found no problem, which appears to agree with a previous post.

If any attempt is made to publicise the reversing issue at the NEC, IMO it should clearly indicate the versions effected.

 
userRoyH
Posted: 28 January 2008 7:54 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
Regular Visitor

Posts: 286
100100252525
Location: West Berkshire


Hi

I don't have one of these and am I glad I don't, in fact I'm an ex motorhomer gone tugging, but I see that this is about to drop off the bottom so I've posted this to get it back to the top. Good luck to you all remember nothing succeeds like persistance. I'll be following with interest, as a retired transport engineer I can see not much has changed.

RoyH.

Edited by RoyH 2008-01-28 8:15 PM
 
userRayjsj
Posted: 28 January 2008 9:52 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


Stalwart

Posts: 2340
200010010010025
Location: Way out West (Wales) Autotrail Savannah


Andy & All,
Thanks for the very intresting and alarming reading, at the NEC I will ONLY be looking at Renault Master based units (a bit limiting !! but who needs the hassle).
 
userLe Thou
Posted: 28 January 2008 10:03 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


Permanent Fixture

Posts: 512
500


Hi Ray
Have a look at the Autotrail Miami on the Renault base, six speed, 150bhp as standard. You wont regret the time
 
userClive
Posted: 29 January 2008 11:13 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


Stalwart

Posts: 3138
2000100010025
Location: New Milton


Raymond,
Renault is OK but don,t rule out Merc, VW, Iveco from your list of alternatives. I am just suprised that no Toyota based MH,s are on offer.

C.
 
userAndyStothert
Posted: 2 February 2008 12:30 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
Permanent Fixture

Posts: 554
5002525


Has anyone got access to the technical spec which gives the gear and differential ratios used in both the new and previous model Fiat Ducato and Peugeot Boxer.
An opinion that the revese gear ratio is slightly too high is gathering strength so can anyone with the proper techical knowledge provide an answer?
 
userDerek Uzzell
Posted: 30 January 2008 7:33 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
50002000200010025
Location: Herefordshire


There's a posting on the MotorHomeFacts forum that usefully attempts to summarise the present Fiat 'problem' situation. The link is:

http://www.motorhomefacts.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=38100

 
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 30 January 2008 11:37 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


50005000100010025
Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Hymer Exsis-i 578


That seems a rather more organised approach than has been apparent on here, to date.  Even the moderators are involved in pulling the posts together into one place.

Is MMM being just a little supine in fronting this for those affected?  Having read just some of that lot, I have to say I'd hate to be waiting for/having just taken delivery of, a Fiat/Peugeot based van at present.  These faults should all be sorted out by the supplying dealers before vans are delivered to their customers.  Lets hope they all are!

 
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 30 January 2008 9:22 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


50005000100010025
Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Hymer Exsis-i 578


Bump!
 
usermichele
Posted: 30 January 2008 10:32 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


5000500050010010010025
Location: Autotrail Chieftain G


And bump come on Mods
 
userbigal55
Posted: 30 January 2008 11:24 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


Stalwart

Posts: 600
500100
Location: alum chine bournemouth ace milano 2007


could i be bumped, pleeeeease.

Edited by bigal55 2008-01-30 11:24 PM
 
usersnobbyafghan
Posted: 31 January 2008 8:01 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


Regular Visitor

Posts: 192
100252525
Location: Wiltshire, Eriba Puck


Citroen is mentioned in the topic title but I haven't seen any specific references to them in the posts.

Does anyone have any experience of this problem with Citroens? (Guess what make my van is..!)

Doug
 
usermichele
Posted: 31 January 2008 9:05 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


5000500050010010010025
Location: Autotrail Chieftain G


bump
 
userDerek Uzzell
Posted: 31 January 2008 9:18 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
50002000200010025
Location: Herefordshire


snobbyafghan:

The Citroen Relay base used for your Dimension is a clone of the Peugeot Boxer as far as 'motorisation' is concerned (ie. only 2.2-litre or 3.0-litre motors are installed). It would seem that the severe juddering-in-reverse problem relates only to Fiat Ducatos fitted with the 2.3-litre motor. (I say this deliberately in the hope that someone will tell me it's wrong. It would be helpful if people complaining that "My Fiat has got the judders" revealed which motor was fitted.) Suggest you try reversing up a steep slope and see what happens.

As far as the other problems listed on the motorhomefacts website are concerned, I think you should assume they potentially apply (where appropriate) to your motorhome too. Best to have a word with a Romahome dealer (I think Moran Motorhomes at Ludlow will be your nearest) to check what's happening regarding recalls, fixes and the like.
 
userMike H
Posted: 31 January 2008 11:24 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
Visitor

Posts: 92
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Location: Sandy.Beds.08 Starspirit


Mine is the Fiat 130. I have forwarded details to Andy.
Mike H.
 
userdshague
Posted: 31 January 2008 9:08 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


Frequent Contributor

Posts: 495
100100100100252525
Location: swift mondial sth yorkshire


bump
 
userfud3
Posted: 1 February 2008 2:33 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
New User

Posts: 38
25


Oh heck, just placed an order for a new Swift Suntore 580PR on a fiat, picking up in March, should I speak with the motorhome dealer now to see if they have had this problem brought to their attention and if so has anything been done about it, or should I speak to Fiat direct now rather than wait!
 
userAndyStothert
Posted: 1 February 2008 5:41 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
Permanent Fixture

Posts: 554
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Greetings,
According to Fiat Swift are well aware of the problem and have been putting pressure of Fiat to sort it out - which they say they haven't yet done.
Have words with Swift and Fiat if you like, but don't expect anything but denials despite what Fiat have told me.
Cheers
Andy
 
userzulurita
Posted: 1 February 2008 3:00 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


Regular Visitor

Posts: 155
1002525


I have the 2.3L 130 multijet bought Nov 2nd.

So far no juddering on reverse but then I haven't tried to reverse uphill, only into my parking space at home which isn't completely flat but neither would I consider it uphill.

Of course it did have the famous water feature!
 
userAndyStothert
Posted: 1 February 2008 8:50 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
Permanent Fixture

Posts: 554
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Can you take it somehwhere steep and reverse the hill then let me know how it fared and what model, make, engine, gearbox cahssis it is.
Thanks
Andy
 
userdshague
Posted: 1 February 2008 9:07 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


Frequent Contributor

Posts: 495
100100100100252525
Location: swift mondial sth yorkshire


the dealers no of these problems ..but when you are looking for a van they  say not aware of any problem's .then  go back to them and show them a print out of these posts . all recalls will be done before you pick up on 1st march but not the revising problem. if you  have payed your deposit like me .  don't think you can cancel if you wanted to.  anyway  we  dont want to cancel.
 
usereddie123
Posted: 2 February 2008 1:36 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


New User

Posts: 73
2525
Location: Warrington, Cheshire


Many years ago (1969) when I worked for Eaton Two-Speed Axles, I used to approve axle applications. I was responsible for the calculations to ensure that axle capacity and axle ratio matched a range of lorry engine/gearbox configurations and vehicle use i.e. potential for overloading. I have long since forgotten the formulea but I suspect that there are two issues at play here; one is that the ratio of reverse gear is too high for the engine or there is some transmission dynamics at play that only occurs during reversing. Obviously during reversing the the engine continues to rotate in the same direction but the torque reactions to the transmission/engine via the vehicle wheels are reversed, if the engineered loading points through the suspension and engine mounts have a degree of extra compliance for some reason or another it could result in a sort of energy wind up and release causing the juddering. Experienced drivers tacitly sense the revs at which maximum torque is delivered and when pulling away from rest they apply that level of throttle (in the case of the 130 Multi-jet this is around or just above 2000 rpm). The reason Fiat are advising drivers to use higher revs is to move the vehicle dynamics away from the problem zone. This is a fudge to mask a basic design error in my opinion. I have witnessed the juddering for myself, and in the long term this will take its toll. I will be complaing to my dealer and Fiat Customer Care in the next few days
 
userrowley
Posted: 2 February 2008 7:22 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
Visitor

Posts: 102
100
Location: Chesterfield


I did experience judder on the first occasion that I reversed my Adria Twin, Fiat 2.2 100 mj, since then it has been ok. However I still have not reversed up a decent incline. When reversing I do not need to press the accelerator as tick over revs seem to cope.
 
userAndyStothert
Posted: 3 February 2008 12:48 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
Permanent Fixture

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Could you go and find a decent hill then reverse the Adria up it then let me know how it feels.
I suspect that lower gearing on the five speed 2.2 engine models may be less prone to it than the higher geared 6 speed ones.
But I'm not sure, so some definite feedback may help to isolate exactly where the problem lies.

And as usual the daily request for those owners of these 2007/08 Fiats and Peugeot/Citroens who are unhappy with the way they judder on steep hills in reverse to contact me.
I'm considering going to VOSA (govt vehicle agency) over the safety aspects of this problem and to get them to listen need a fairly long list of unhappy owners to back it up.

So email me if you own one and are dissatisfieed with the response from Fiat

andystothert@blueyonder.co.uk
 
userMike H
Posted: 3 February 2008 3:38 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Have written to C&CC today asking them to publish a letter in the Magazine. Hopefully we will get some more feed back from owners who haven't visited this site yet.
Mike H.
 
userfred grant
Posted: 3 February 2008 8:09 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


Stalwart

Posts: 899
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fred says see italiaspeed.com

for gear ratios

4.083:1

??????

zall beyond i me luvvers
 
userAndyStothert
Posted: 4 February 2008 8:52 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Thanks, will have a look at Italiaspeed.com and report back

Anybody with any concerns about the judder whilst reversing a latest model Fiat Ducato (late 06 onwards) plesae email me.
andystothert@blueyonder.co.uk
 
userDerek Uzzell
Posted: 4 February 2008 10:15 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Location: Herefordshire


With lengthy threads like these, it's sometimes preferable to choose "Nested" format rather than the default "Flat" format (See Format selection below the "Welcome box" towards the top-right of the screen). The Nested format prevents the thread being split into 'pages' and, in this instance, might have made it evident that the Italiaspeed website and gearing was touched on much earlier.
 
usereddie123
Posted: 4 February 2008 6:48 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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There is another factor involved in this issue and that is the Fiat van with its 120 hp engine is offered on 15 inch and 16 inch wheels presumably with some sort of road tyre, whereas the Fiat chassis/engine destined for motor home use with its chipped 130 hp engine having a different power delivery curve and probably running on 16 inch wheels with Camping tyres will be subject to an increase in rolling radius, thus having the effect of pushing up the effective gear ratios.
However because the problem is very extreme in reverse and not at all apparent in 1st gear (which currently looks like it has a higher ratio than reverse), leads me to think that it is more to do with the suspension and engine /gearbox mounting.
 
userAndyStothert
Posted: 4 February 2008 8:15 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Eddie,
No, what we think is that reverse has a higher ratio than 1st.
Odd I know, but that's how it's looking. Personally I couldn't give a monkeys if it worked OK, but having paid all this cash, not wanting to buy another van for a while, and finding that the thing is useless in hilly terrain (where I spend my life) I'm all of a sudden getting concerned.
I am going to test it as long as the speedo registers going backwards, which I can't recall seeing one way or the other.

If you own one take it to a steep hill and reverse the thing up.

 
userDerek Uzzell
Posted: 5 February 2008 9:50 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Location: Herefordshire


Eddie:

With latest SEVEL chassis the tyre position (as I understand it) is as follows:

Ducato, Boxer and Relay/Jumper chassis to "Maxi" specification (seemingly now also termed "heavy" chassis in SEVEL-speak) have 16" diameter wheels, whereas "light" chassis designed for a Maximum Authorised Mass not exceeding 3500kg have 15" diameter wheels. I believe that, when 'camping tyres' are fitted the sizes will be 225/75 R16C (heavy chassis) or 215/70 R15C (light chassis).

The 16" tyre has a greater rolling circumference than the 15" one, so, if the wheels from a 'heavy' chassis were transferred to a 'light' chassis, the latter's existing gearing would be raised significantly. (I haven't got exact data for the two tyre sizes, but we'd probably be looking at an increase of around 9%).

However, based on the information on the Italiaspeed website, it seems that the final-drive ratio of power-trains used with 'heavy' chassis vehicles is considerably lower than that employed on 'light' chassis. When a 2.3-litre motor is used with a Maxi chassis the final-drive ratio is some 19% lower than when the same motor is fitted to a 'light' chassis. Even though the Maxi-chassis' bigger wheels/tyres raise the overall gearing, this increase is more than offset by the much lower final-drive ratio. The opposite seems to occur with the 3.0-litre motor where the final-drive ratio is some 7% lower when a Maxi chassis is involved.

Fiat's Ducato advertising claims that (for the 130 and 160 MultiJet motors) "specific gear ratios were defined for optimised performance on a motorhome". I don't know what this statement translates to in reality (and it won't apply to panel-van conversions in any case), but it might mean that the gearboxes of 2.3-litre and 3.0-litre motors used in 'light' chassis destined for conversion into motorhomes get a 'heavy' chassis final-drive ratio.

The Geist ST690 (130 MultiJet motor/Al-Ko chassis) test-report in the January 2008 CC magazine speaks of "a very low first gear", but I can't decide whether the vehicle has a 'light' or 'heavy' basis. Although the Geist's MAM is quoted at 3500kg, the vehicle's sheer bulk suggests it's on a 'heavy' (4000kg) chassis deliberately limited to 3500kg to widen its market appeal. If it's actually on a genuine 'light' chassis then it's probably got Maxi-chassis gearing, and if it's on a down-plated Maxi-chassis it will have low-gearing anyway. (I'm inclined to the latter theory, as the wheels look like 16"-ers.)

The Italiaspeed website indicates that reverse-gear for the 2.3-litre 120 MultiJet power-train fitted to a panel-van is around 8% lower than 1st gear. I did a VERY rough calculation using the 1st and final-drive (4.222:1) ratios quoted by Italiaspeed, and compared the result with my own Transit-based motorhome (making an allowance for different wheel/tyre sizes) that has a very obviously high first gear. This seemed to show that a Fiat panel-van's overall gearing in 1st gear was even higher than my Ford's. I'm not too comfortable with this conclusion as, if the Fiat's bottom-gearing is that high, I would have expected it to have been remarked on before. However, if correct, it might mean reverse-gear (though apparently lower than 1st) could still prove to be unpleasantly high when the vehicle has to back up a steep incline.

If one knows a transmission's intermediate and final-drive ratios and the rolling circumference of the tyres, it's not that difficult to obtain a figure for the speed at which a vehicle will travel at a specific rpm in a particular gear. The tricky thing is to interpret such figures as far as 'drive-ability' is concerned. When I did this for my Hobby motorhome, it confirmed what I already knew from driving the vehicle - that 1st gear was high and that there was a sizeable gap between 4th and 5th. From a drive-ability point of view I couldn't care less about the 4th/5th gap, but I loathe the high bottom-gear ratio because it's impossible to adapt my driving technique to overcome the ratio's inevitable consequences without deliberately putting stress on the clutch.

The fact that the flywheel/clutch assembly and power-train mountings were different on the outgoing SEVEL chassis (that didn't exhibit juddering-in-reverse symptoms) strongly suggests to me that that's where the problem lies with the latest SEVEL models.
 
userAndyStothert
Posted: 5 February 2008 7:28 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Derek,
Yes, I think we're getting all that. I'm so good with the computer that I coudln't find the gear ratiso for the new Fiat on that website......
Strangely, bottom gear does feel a low ratio, and I think it will go faster in reverse than than 1st.

I've got (several unhappy owners who are prepared to get involved in giving Fiat some incentives to sort this out, but not yet enough to make it really work.
ANYBODY OUT THERE WITH A JUDDERING (IN REVERSE UPHILL) FIAT PLEASE EMAIL ME - andystothert@blueyonder.co.uk

I know some of you must be getting bored with this by now, but can all those helpful fok who have been keeping it at the top of the page continue to help us poor sods who havebeen silly enough to buy one of these R&D projects.
 
usereuroserv
Posted: 5 February 2008 8:05 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
Stalwart

Posts: 1116
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Andy,

Please could you let me have your chassis number and I will see if there are any clues that could confirm or otherwise Derek's theories using our Fiat parts disc. I should be able to determine exactly what gears you have in your box, and whether therefore your 'light' chassis has 'heavy' parts.

I personally believe it has more to do with the DMF and engine mountings, but the more we know the better.

Nick
 
userAndyStothert
Posted: 6 February 2008 10:58 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Nick,
I've received several different versions of the ratios from different sources, but one thing which is now apparent from the replies I've had is that there are a vast number of juddering Fiats out there, especiially if you consider the tiny percentage of owners who look at this forum.
I will forward the chassis number to you.
What is causingthe problem is, in the great scheme of things irrelevant, because Fiat have had this complaint from so many ownesr for so long that they will know exactly what it is. My fears are (and hence all this trubble at 't mill) that if it had been something simple they would have sorted it out.
And still they are acting all surprised and telling owners they know nothing about it hwn I have a letter from Fiat to me sating they are well aware of it and are seeking a techical solution.
 
userDerek Uzzell
Posted: 7 February 2008 9:06 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Location: Herefordshire


The most complete source of X250 Ducato technical information I've come across on the internet can be found on the following link:

http://www.waltonsummit.co.uk/fiat/brochures/New_Ducato_Goods_Technical.pdf

Incidentally, I note that, on the other 'juddering' forum posting

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=10481&posts=29

it's been suggested that a reason why vehicles with the 2.2-litre/5-speed gearbox seem to judder less when reversed compared with the larger capacity motors with 6-speed gearboxes may be because the 2.2-litre transmission has a lower final-drive ratio. In fact, the 2.2-litre power-train's 'overall' reverse-gear ratio (reverse-gear ratio x final-drive ratio) - which is the ratio that matters - is some 10% higher than that of the larger-engined vehicles (assuming the latter's chassis are non-Maxi).

If 2.2-litre Ducatos do indeed judder less in reverse than their bigger-engined siblings, it's more likely because the basic design of their (Ford-derived) motors differs significantly from that of the 2.3-litre and 3.0-litre (Iveco-derived) power-plants. Mk 7 Transits with look-alike 2.2-litre motors apparently don't demonstrate the juddering symptoms, so it's not unreasonable to assume that, if a 2.2 Ducato is less juddery, it's the motor 'package' that's at least part of the cause.
 
usercolinfrier
Posted: 7 February 2008 6:30 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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I have started a thread on www.fiatforum.com regarding reversing judder if you have a problem add your comments it may help I think Fiat monitor the forum
Colin
 
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 7 February 2008 7:56 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems
 


50005000100010025
Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Hymer Exsis-i 578


Somehow, I don't think this problem is going to be primarily due to gear ratios, either individual ratios or overall ratio.  A high first/reverse gear will cause problems in driving away on a hill, but those problems will usually be a tendency to stall, resulting in a need for higher revs, and hence a longer period before the clutch can be fully engaged.  Clutches will wear quicker in the process, but these factors alone should not cause judder.

Conventional causes of clutch judder are:

1 heavy clutch wear,

2 a contaminated clutch plate (usually from oil),

3 rust due to lack of use,

4 rust due to water entry,

5 broken clutch springs, or

6 a loose or damaged clutch lining.

These are new vehicles, so I guess lining and/or friction surfaces not fully bedded in might be added.  However, because they are new vehicles, I think 1 above can be discounted.  The other causes shouldn't arise on a new vehicle, but it must be accepted that any of them might.  2 should be easily checkable, since an oil leak sufficient to contaminate a new clutch on a new vehicle should be visible as leakage from below the clutch housing.  3 really should not be the case, unless the new van is one of those that was a victim of recent floods.  Any rust haze due to standing prior to delivery should burnish off quite quickly.  For this to be our problem it would be common to virtually all vehicles.  4 could possibly be part of the problem, but I don't know where the water people report entering the engine bay runs to after it overflows the cylinder head.  If it runs into the clutch housing while the van is standing, I'd guess the steel components could get into quite a mess in wet weather.  5 and 6 are, I think, too rare as faults to be appearing with the reported frequency, so should be discounted.

Juddering, is when the engine/gearbox jump about while the clutch is slipping, and is usually due to a clutch fault.  However, nearly all vehicles can give a slight judder when the transmission is caught out by an unusual combination of events.  For example, to leave home I must negotiate a slightly uphill T junction.  At times, with a cold engine, if I have almost stopped with the clutch out, but see the road is clear to join and bring the revs back up and re-engage the clutch to pull away, there is a transient slight judder on almost every vehicle I have driven from this junction.  I think it is a case of slow harmonics, where a slight unevenness, possibly from overnight rust haze, causes a slightly uneven bite on the clutch which starts the engine mountings and suspension bushes all wobbling around.

It is in this area that I rather think the Fiat judder problem probably lies.  The dual mass flywheel carries its damping springs at the periphery, whereas the conventional clutch plate carries its near its centre.  The effective lever arm dictates that the DMF springs have to be "softer" than those for a conventional clutch, for the same damping effect.  Soft springs have very different harmonics to stiff ones.  These harmonics, possibly amplified by the quite soft engine/suspension mountings now used to damp transmission harshness on diesels, may well prove the cause of the problem. 

Remember the famous bouncing "Blade of Light" bridge by Foster/Arup?  That was an example of what can happen when tried technology is put into a new context and the expected harmonics don't present.  Then someone has to analyse the components of the problem, so that a remedy can be produced. 

Without the analysis and understanding of what exactly causes the problem, any proposed remedy may just as likely make matters worse.  If the problem is harmonics the eventual solution is likely to be deceptively simple, but arriving at that solution will be far more difficult.  Harmonics are notoriously difficult to track and eliminate, potential remedies often merely moving a problem around the wavelength to emerge at some other frequency. 

All that can realistically be expected in the short term, is for Fiat to acknowledge the problem, commit resources to solving it, and agree to retro-fit whatever remedy is discovered.  In the meantime, unless you have a van that you regularly reverse uphill, this is not really a problem of great magnitude, but I do think you would be very well advised to make sure your dealer, local Fiat service centre and Fiat customer services are all advised of the problem, in writing, making clear that you regard this as unsatisfactory, and that you are seeking remedy under warranty.



Edited by Brian Kirby 2008-02-07 8:00 PM
 
usermadmick
Posted: 5 February 2008 11:31 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


New User

Posts: 38
25


Andy,

gear ratios for Ducato panel vans:

2.2 100ps 1st 3.727:1
reverse 3.154:1
final ratio 4.933:1

2.3 120ps 1st 3.727:1
reverse 4.083:1
final ratio 4.222:1 (maxi 5.231:1)

3.0 160ps 1st 4.167:1
reverse 4.083:1
final ratio 4.222:1 (maxi 4.563:1)

standard van tyres 215/70R15C optional 225/70R15C
maxi van tyres 215/75R16C optional 225/75R16C

let me know if you need more figures old wise one

madmick
 
userMike H
Posted: 6 February 2008 9:49 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
Visitor

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Location: Sandy.Beds.08 Starspirit


Madmick.
Read your reply to Andy with gear ratios. Have you got the ratios for the 2.3 130ps? The one used only for motrocaravans. I looked on Italiaspeed website but they weren't shown. I'm sure Andy will want to know these, for his data collection etc.
Thanks. Mike H.
 
userAndyStothert
Posted: 6 February 2008 5:01 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Mike,
The ratios for the 130 and 120 should be the same- I think?
 
userAndyStothert
Posted: 6 February 2008 5:00 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Posts: 554
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Madmick,
Thanks for all that.
Are you sufficiently technically profficient to offer an opnion as to whether these figures are high or low against others?

Cheers
All 2007/08 FIAT DUCATO OWNERS - please take it somewhere steep and reverse it up the hill.
If it judders contact me - andystothert@blueyonder.co.uk
 
userClive
Posted: 6 February 2008 6:09 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


Stalwart

Posts: 3138
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Location: New Milton


Andy,
http://www.fiatcv.com.au/cms/default.asp?action=article&ID=21776
Is a usefull site with all the gearbox ratio,s shown for every gear.
Reverse seems to be a constant but other gears change with engine size.

C.
 
userClive
Posted: 6 February 2008 10:25 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


Stalwart

Posts: 3138
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Location: New Milton


Hear are a couple of gear ratio examples :-






(Fiat gear ratios.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments Fiat gear ratios.jpg (28KB - 226 downloads)
 
userdshague
Posted: 7 February 2008 8:59 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


Frequent Contributor

Posts: 495
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Location: swift mondial sth yorkshire


some very good information here .than you for the quality posts..
 
userAndyStothert
Posted: 8 February 2008 1:55 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Posts: 554
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Today's subejct to keep this at the front of the forum queue is that the firm which supplied our lightweight MWB panel van conversion, Nu Venture Campers, have once more offered us our money back.
I'm tempted, but in truth that would be unfair on them. Why should a small company suffer for the mistakes of a huge concern like Fiat. And it was I who chose the base vehicle.

IF YOU HAVE A 2007/2008 Fiat Ducato which judders when reversing up a steep hill then please email me - andystothert@blueyonder.co.uk

If you have one of these vehicles and have never reversed it up a hill then do so soon, because it may very well carry the defective gene which so many seem to suffering with. IF THE JUDDERING GOES UNDETECTED AND UNREPORTED YOU MAY WELL FACE A HUGE BILL FOR GEARBOX REPAIRS IN THE FUTURE (if out of warranty) WHEN A STEEP HILL IS ENCOUNTERED.
 
userTracker
Posted: 8 February 2008 2:28 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


WOW Andy, that is a huge advert and publicity coup for Nu Venture - I'm impressed - not something I am given to!

However the cynic in me has to wonder how much of their wonderful gesture is down to your position in the media?

Nevertheless all credit to Nu Venture.
 
userEdgeley
Posted: 8 February 2008 2:40 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
New User

Posts: 5



I e.mailed Andy Re.my ;07 juddering Ducato and have an ongoing situation. Rest assured after 40 years with a Ford main dealer in Mannchester selling up to 4000 cars trucks & vans this situation will not persist. Food for thought friends Italian vehicle testers drive many thousands of miles forwards they only engage reverse in war situations.
 
userEdgeley
Posted: 8 February 2008 2:49 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
New User

Posts: 5



Iam trying to ascertain how many vehicles are involved please e.mail me at ,william.yarwood@tesco.net
 
userTracker
Posted: 8 February 2008 3:04 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


Edgeley - 2008-02-08 2:40 PM
Food for thought friends Italian vehicle testers drive many thousands of miles forwards they only engage reverse in war situations.


That explains the Peugeot connection then!
 
userClive
Posted: 8 February 2008 10:24 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


Stalwart

Posts: 3138
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Location: New Milton


How is the list growing?
 
userAndyStothert
Posted: 9 February 2008 3:19 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Clive,
It's growing but to ensure Fiat take this seriously everyone who owns one of these otherwise (almost) excellent vehicles should go out and find a steep hill to reverse up and see what happens.
If it judders email me
andystothert@blueyonder.co.uk
 
userfred grant
Posted: 9 February 2008 8:24 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


Stalwart

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Location: penpillick


us as got a 1999 and the only time it judders me ansums is when alice is in the kazi. i as to drive very steddy my biddies, mostly in gear three, as thetferd dont supply seatbelts - at least not big enough for er majesty.

f
 
userdshague
Posted: 9 February 2008 9:02 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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Posts: 495
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Location: swift mondial sth yorkshire


look at what cross say on subject..  http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=10500&posts=25



Edited by dshague 2008-02-09 9:08 PM
 
userAndyStothert
Posted: 9 February 2008 9:20 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
Permanent Fixture

Posts: 554
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dshague - 2008-02-09 9:02 PM

look at what cross say on subject..  http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=10500&posts=25




Yep, they don't have Welsh hills there for reversing, nor do they read the Fiat Service News Ciculars.
 
userMike H
Posted: 11 February 2008 10:03 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Just going to try mine again, goes into Fiat tomorrow, for recalls, watergate, and investigation into clutch juidder. Going to try different styles, no revs, let clutch out and then rev, if it hasn't stalled. Rev to 1300 then let clutch out or try 3000 revs and see what happens.
Mike H.
 
userClive
Posted: 11 February 2008 1:56 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


Stalwart

Posts: 3138
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Location: New Milton


Would appreciate some feedback on what you think of Fiats "cure" for the water ingress problem. Some have suggested its not exactly an engineered solution but a bit of a bodge.??

 
usercolinfrier
Posted: 11 February 2008 7:15 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
Contributor

Posts: 373
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Location: Alcaucin Malaga Spain


Hi
Below is a copy of a recent post from www.fiatforum.com regarding reversing judder "It's a characteristic of the van" so all questions now answered???????????????????????
Colin


Originally Posted by Joiner
Hi
I also have a new Ducato Maxi van and suffer the same judder, but also sometimes it can snatch and judder in 1st when the drive is taken up.
I have spoken to the dealer and the response was that if it didn`t happen at 1300 rpm or above then Fiat won`t recognise it as a fault. Try driving when you have to use 1300 rpm and above!!. Some of the comments from friends are that it could be too high a reverse gear, too small a clutch, clutch material.

I do quite a lot of trailer work and it is hopeless trying to reverse up any incline with an empty trailer never mind when there is any weight on it.
Lots of revs and slip the clutch!!!!

Also am I the only one to be suffering from poor fuel economy?. Without any trailer etc I can`t get better than 23mpg.

Hi, I have the same van, and the same judder, took it back to the dealer today and the official word form Fiat is that is a characteristic of the van . Never read that one in the brochure!!!!!!!!!1

 
userAndy T
Posted: 12 February 2008 10:21 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
252525
Location: Chirk, Clwyd, Mooveo 608, 2007. Ducato 100.


Joiner may be interested in this quote from a piece in ComputerActive about faulty goods.
"The six month protection (under the Sale of Goods Act) states that within that time period the consumer doesn't have to prove the goods are faulty; the retailer must prove otherwise. --- Repairs must be made in a reasonable time and the inherent fault corrected to make the product fit for purpose. If the same thing happens again, the product is still not fit for purpose. The law allows another chance to put things right, but after this (the owner) does not have to put up with having continuing repairs for recurrent faults and can demand a refund or damages."
I guess that "inherent fault" may equal "characteristic" in these circumstances.
And relating to another post can we cut the comments about Italians and reverse gear. Very old, no longer funny, not very grown up and not very likely to help our case if indeed Fiat are monitoring this forum.
Regards,
Andy T
 
userClive
Posted: 12 February 2008 2:12 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


Stalwart

Posts: 3138
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Location: New Milton


You can,t be as old as some of us then Andy!
But from an Engineering Viewpoint the Sevel vans seem to jump from one under developed model with a clutch of faults and just when they seem to have got it right then change to a new model with another different load of faults. Its a pitty as the basic engine seems OK - if you can keep the water out that is! Oh and don,t select reverse.
 
userClive
Posted: 14 February 2008 9:27 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


Stalwart

Posts: 3138
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Location: New Milton


Andy will be back from his working week soon I guess!
 
userAndyStothert
Posted: 15 February 2008 4:02 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Posts: 554
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Can I just thank all you regular forum persons for keeping all this at the forefront of people's minds whilst I've been away 'working'.
Frankly I find it almost incredible that people are still thinking of buying these things when we now know what we know about their mechanical frailties.

Does one of these eejits want to buy ours? Lovely metallic blue MWB van conversion, 2.3 engine 6 speed box, but only any use going forwards if in hilly country. Will definitely break down, but hey, who cares?
 
userDave Newell
Posted: 15 February 2008 4:40 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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OK Andy, I'll give you £25 for it .

D.
 
userMike H
Posted: 15 February 2008 10:22 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
Visitor

Posts: 92
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Andy. I'll double Dave's offer. £50.
As unseen.
Mike H
 
userMike H
Posted: 15 February 2008 10:23 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Andy. I'll double Dave's offer. £50.
As unseen.
Mike H
 
userdavenewell@home
Posted: 16 February 2008 7:19 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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OK Mike you got me, I'll up it to £75 but that's my final offer

D.
 
userMike H
Posted: 16 February 2008 9:37 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Ok Dave.
It's your bid.
I don't really want another van with a dodgy gearbox, one's enough.

Mike.
 
userAndyStothert
Posted: 16 February 2008 9:00 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Ah, but are you sure its the gearbox?
 
userMike H
Posted: 16 February 2008 10:10 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Andy.
Well reverse gear is in the gearbox, that's close enough!!

Mike
 
userdavenewell@home
Posted: 17 February 2008 8:02 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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Posts: 3257
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Location: Shropshire. Motorhome= 1996 home converted Iveco


AndyStothert - 2008-02-16 9:00 PM

Ah, but are you sure its the gearbox?


No but for £75 I'll take a chance. It seems better odds than some of the wet motorhomes that are coming up for sale after the floods last year

D.
 
userTracker
Posted: 17 February 2008 11:00 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


If some kind person can lend me fifty quid at a decent rate of interest, I'll take a chance and bid £100 - but only as long as it comes with a spare gearbox, flywheel and clutch assembly!
 
userMike H
Posted: 18 February 2008 10:16 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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About to drop off the bottom. Bumps-a-daisy.
 
userbigal55
Posted: 19 February 2008 7:25 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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no it,s not
 
userAndyStothert
Posted: 20 February 2008 5:23 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Greetings all from the Fiat Kneetremblers and Judderers Club,
Colin Crompton will be juddering in his grave.

IF YOU HAVE A NEW MODEL FIAT (of whatever model or engine /gearbox combinations) TAKE IT TO A STEEP HILL AND REVERSE IT UP. If you're not happy with the way it performs complain to Fiat and let me know. - andystothert@blueyonder.co.uk

Yes I know this is getting boring - this same message appearing here - but you don't have to read it if you're fed up of this topic.
The thing is that this base vehicle is the most vital component of most motorcaravans built in this country, and that IF there is a potential design defect which could seriously affect these vehicles sin certain circumstances, and at theh very least shorten the life of the clutch and gearbox, then everybody has a right to know about these matters before making a buying decision.

After two days at the NEC talking to anybody who'd listen I'm not sure the forum route is making as much progress as we (The Afflicted) might wish for. None of the manufacturers would 'cough' to seeing this forum, and as far as I could tell none of them have any beef with us letting potential customers know of any issues this way. Most said they would look into it.
Jonathan Lloyd (who is going to bring up this matter in his column in a magazine from another publisher) mentioned it to Murvi who suggested that the answer may lie in the ESP unit?
Dave Newell is also going to see if there are any other Knowing Judderers who read another publication he features in monthly, and pass on te details to the FNJC.

Anyway I'm not sure my time was that usefully spent at the NEC, but Somers Wood campsite was as nice as ever, and the food at the golf club next door excellent. The company (Jagos, Lloyd, Hurrell and Little Attila) were all as crazed as as ever. So who cares if no wars were won.
However, I did manage to speak to Steve Barker, who is the man in charge of motorhome chassis Dept.
He knows full well that they have this problem, and openly admits it, and he promises he will be making further enquiries with teh SEVEL techical folk to see if any progress is being made to find a solution. But he's a realist and knows the financial implications of Fiat making a public pronouncement that they are producing something with a design defect is next to nil.
So do we keep chipping away at Fiat?

This very day our Judderer has been on its monthly visit to the local Fiat dealer. We took it to a properly steep hill (1:5) this time and had a smoking clutch before any rearward judder-free progress could be made. Another 10,000 miles off the cluch life then.
'Hasn't improved, has it?' says the engineer 'We'll sese what Fiat say this time'.
The dealers reckon that Fiat will ask them to change the clutch now, and that this is just another fob-off.
There are several other 'vans getting yet another 'inspection' shortly so it will be interesting to see how Fiat deal with this ongoing situation in teh next stage of customer disenchantment.

Personally, I'm not optimistic.

If anybody out there has any experience of compelling a motor manufacturer to address customers problems and has any (useful) advice feel free to offer it.



 
userClive
Posted: 20 February 2008 4:43 PM
Subject: FIAT DISPLAY ANSWER TO PROBLEM AT THE NEC
 


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Posts: 3138
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Location: New Milton


To travel in reverse
1) Centralise steering wheel, turn engine off and remove key.
2) Check steering lock is operational.
3) Walk to other end of vehicle and insert key.
4) Start engine
5) Engage 1st gear
6) Drive away in the oposite direction.
EASY




(Fiats answer to the reversing problem.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments Fiats answer to the reversing problem.jpg (62KB - 304 downloads)
 
userClive
Posted: 20 February 2008 6:41 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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Location: New Milton


I spoke calmly to the gent on the Fiat stand and asked him if the back to back was the cure of the reversing up hill problem. He stuttered then grinned. He did say that Fiat were aware, that he was aware there was much debate about the topic on forums on the Internet and that Fiat were working on a fix. He didn,t know when the fix was going to come out but assured me Fiat were working towards one.

He didn,t know my name - but I did enter the raffle and won a squeezable two LED torch! So I guess he might have worked out my name was not Andy!

C.


 
usercolinfrier
Posted: 20 February 2008 7:14 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Location: Alcaucin Malaga Spain


Hi
Its a comfort to know Fiat are working on the judder i guess this is like working on water ingress but even more serious and we all know how well they hve done on the water issue!!!!
Colin
 
usertrooper
Posted: 20 February 2008 7:25 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
Contributor

Posts: 385
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Location: Hingham Norfolk


I have just done a 4000 mile trip to and around part of spain with my 160 multijet powered burstner and the fiat part has behaved perfectly, just the heatshield above the main(last) silencer breaking up, but its the best vehicle overall I have owned or driven, yes I reversed it up inclines ect but so far no problems apart from shake mentioned elsware.
 
userDen
Posted: 20 February 2008 10:26 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
Frequent Contributor

Posts: 469
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Location: Worcester


try and buy renault .one amazing vehicle .ive used these for 6 years covering 700000 miles [working ] no engines gearboxes and not one clutch.........and no kiddin. and my new van converted by wyvern in shepton mallet [sterile medical workshop]2.5ltr 150bhp quick shift 6 gearbox returning 35 to 38.8 mpg fully loaded

Edited by Den 2008-02-20 10:31 PM
 
userAndyStothert
Posted: 21 February 2008 6:29 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Reversing judder 'Blog of the day' relates to the 'Fiat lunch' at the NEC yesterday when apparently the Editor of MMM savaged the Fiat staff demanding to know when they were going to do something about the issue of Ducatos being unable to reverse up steep hills without breaking gearboxes or clutches.
If only to stop me bending his ear on a daily basis. .
They said they were well aware of the defect and that a solution was not that far away, then refused him extra food on the basis that he looked to be overloaded already.
Meanwhile, after agreeing again that our Ducato is indeed are actively looking for a solution, and that they would get back to me yesterday with their intented plan to solve it I haven't heard a peep.
And all this at the same time as they are telling everyone that juddering in reverse is quite acceptable. Don't be fobbed off. This is a time bomb waiting to go off when the warranty has expired.

IF YOU HAVE A DUCATO X250 REVERSE IT UP A STEEP HILL. IF IT JUDDERS MAKE AN OFFICIAL COMLAINT TO FIAT AS THIS WILL UNDOUBTEDLY LEAD TO PREMATURE FAILURE OF THE CLUTCH OR GEARBOX.

AND let me know - andystothert@blueyonder.co.uk
 
usercolin
Posted: 22 February 2008 7:59 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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Spoke to several salemen at NEC today and none admitted to knowing of any problems with Sevel vans except the water ingress, which they all said had been sorted out on recalls.
 
userAndyStothert
Posted: 22 February 2008 8:02 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Tonights attempt to keep this at the forefront of motorcaravanners short memories involves Fiat Customer Care.
Or Fiat Company Care as we've come to know it.
After Wednesday's debacle of smoking clutches and juddering gearboxes Fiat said they would contact me on Thursday.
Today is Friday, and they haven't, so I rang Fiat Company Care and spoke to Edwin.
I asked if I could be put through to Richard Swiatek the man in that department dealing with my complaint.

'Oh I'm sorry but Richard Swiatek (the man who sent me a letter stating that Fiat were aware of the problem and seeking a technical solution) has been moved. Nobody has been assigned to deal with your case. Do you want me to re-flag it for attention?'
'But my vehicle was examined again on Wednesday and I want to know what is going to be done about it' exasperates I.
'No, we know nothing about that' says the polite Edwin.
'Get that man Westnedge the Executive i/c Customer Care to ring me' says I.
But no, my case has disappeared into the ether.
I think I may be well and truly marked.
My good lady and I have had a discussion and this is now causing me more aggro than is good for a man with blood pressure, so I think it's time to give up and buy a Renault.
What do the rest of you think?
 
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 23 February 2008 11:30 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


50005000100010025
Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Hymer Exsis-i 578


For what it's worth Andy, as that nice Mr Jago stuck his head above the parapet on your collective behalves and tackled Fiat, and as changing to a different van will cost you a packet, I think one more letter to the MD, who has replied to your earlier letter, might be in order.

If you update him on your experiences with Customer Care and the disappearing case/contact, and ask him in return for an update on progress towards a judder fix, he should be able to reply without too much angst!

 
usermadmick
Posted: 23 February 2008 4:59 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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Posts: 38
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Brian Kirby - 2008-02-23 11:30 AM

For what it's worth Andy, as that nice Mr Jago stuck his head above the parapet on your collective behalves and tackled Fiat, and as changing to a different van will cost you a packet, I think one more letter to the MD, who has replied to your earlier letter, might be in order.

If you update him on your experiences with Customer Care and the disappearing case/contact, and ask him in return for an update on progress towards a judder fix, he should be able to reply without too much angst!




NICE? Careful Brian, my reputation could be at stake here.

madmick
 
usercolin
Posted: 22 February 2008 8:38 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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I've going to look at three Master based vans as alternative to Twin, but then I think the Master has a better driving position anyway.
 
userClive
Posted: 23 February 2008 6:07 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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Posts: 3138
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Location: New Milton


I guess Brian wants a job then?
 
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 23 February 2008 6:41 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


50005000100010025
Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Hymer Exsis-i 578


Steady boys, or I'll have to start sending Christmas Cards! 
 
userAndyStothert
Posted: 23 February 2008 8:38 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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I wish I had half the eloquence and computer grasp which these other gentlemen (gits) seem to have mastered. How do you get a quote in the white box?

Anyway, back to the defective Fiat business, and in truth I'm slightly depressed about the whole thing. I walked into this with the kind of wide eyed innocence which should only blight the young (or stupid?) and have received a very severe spanking from Fiat, who are obviously experts at this kind of thing.

However, perhaps the tale of Peter Davies from Dyfed (don't ask me where it is) will bring some sort of perspective to it all.
Peter has a 2007 Auto Trail Cheyenne with 2.3 litre engine and living in the land of steep hills pretty soon realised that not all was as it should be in the Reversing Department with his new Fiat.
He took it back to Chelston, the dealers, who agreed that indeed it went backwards up hills in a series of leap and jumps rather than smoothly, and they asked Fiat what to do?
Fiat at this time hadn't got the terrorists in to handle the Customer Care on this issue, and instructed them to strip it down and find the fault, which they did, and they didn't.
The Fiat Auto Trail still judders like the rest of them, but Fiat are now telling him that whilst they thought it a defect before, and worthy of a full three weeks attention in the workshop, there is in fact now absolutely nothing wrong with it. The judder (and any subsequent gearbox and clutch failures) are a 'Characteristic of the vehicle'.
Peter is, like me, and quite a few others, baffled, and feeling just a little bit sick about his rather costly investment.

The 'fix' for this is obviously such a large and expensive piece of re-engineering that Fiat are now battening down the hatches and repelling customers at all costs.

If you have one of these vehicles (2007 onwards X250 models) it IS defective - Fiat have adimitted it to all and sundry except the customers - so go and reverse it up a steep hill (one in five or steeper) and experience the unique (but characteristic) juddering.
Take your heads out of the sand before it costs you a fortune just after the warranty has expired.
Better still, don't buy one in the first place.
Daily rant over.

 
userdiydoolittle
Posted: 23 February 2008 9:14 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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AndyStothert - 2008-02-23 8:38 PM

I wish I had half the eloquence and computer grasp which these other gentlemen (gits) seem to have mastered. How do you get a quote in the white box?

Anyway, back to the defective Fiat business, and in truth I'm slightly depressed about the whole thing. I walked into this with the kind of wide eyed innocence which should only blight the young (or stupid?) and have received a very severe spanking from Fiat, who are obviously experts at this kind of thing.

However, perhaps the tale of Peter Davies from Dyfed (don't ask me where it is) will bring some sort of perspective to it all.
Peter has a 2007 Auto Trail Cheyenne with 2.3 litre engine and living in the land of steep hills pretty soon realised that not all was as it should be in the Reversing Department with his new Fiat.
He took it back to Chelston, the dealers, who agreed that indeed it went backwards up hills in a series of leap and jumps rather than smoothly, and they asked Fiat what to do?
Fiat at this time hadn't got the terrorists in to handle the Customer Care on this issue, and instructed them to strip it down and find the fault, which they did, and they didn't.
The Fiat Auto Trail still judders like the rest of them, but Fiat are now telling him that whilst they thought it a defect before, and worthy of a full three weeks attention in the workshop, there is in fact now absolutely nothing wrong with it. The judder (and any subsequent gearbox and clutch failures) are a 'Characteristic of the vehicle'.
Peter is, like me, and quite a few others, baffled, and feeling just a little bit sick about his rather costly investment.

The 'fix' for this is obviously such a large and expensive piece of re-engineering that Fiat are now battening down the hatches and repelling customers at all costs.

If you have one of these vehicles (2007 onwards X250 models) it IS defective - Fiat have adimitted it to all and sundry except the customers - so go and reverse it up a steep hill (one in five or steeper) and experience the unique (but characteristic) juddering.
Take your heads out of the sand before it costs you a fortune just after the warranty has expired.
Better still, don't buy one in the first place.
Daily rant over.



Hi your saga exactly mirrors the water ingress one!! Many will advocate complaint to Watchdog caravan club yada yada yada. However there is one thing you can do which you may or may not have done and that is get your stickey paws on a Vehicle Defect Form from VOSA ( yes they do exxist!!!) and fill it in! This obliges the manufacturer to investigate. The more people who do this the better. It would be an advantage as it were if safety were an issue not mechanical but someone somewhere i am sure is and may know whether this is a safety issue. 0117 9543 200 ask for Vehicle Safety Branch!!
May or may not help but surely cannot hurt.
One other thing I would tentatively suggest is reject vehicle??? Something which I know from personal experience is not easy but.......................

Sorry to butt into this thread being a newcomer and all, but it is all so familiar with my experiences on scuttlegate it's untrue!!
I really do hope you get it sorted!
 
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 24 February 2008 11:34 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


50005000100010025
Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Hymer Exsis-i 578


AndyStothert - 2008-02-23 8:38 PM I wish I had half the eloquence and computer grasp which these other gentlemen (gits) seem to have mastered. How do you get a quote in the white box? ...............

You mean like this, Andy?  At the bottom right of each post there are two "buttons"; "Reply", and "Quote".

Click on the Quote button, and your reply edit box opens with the selected post already there, contained between square brackets enclosing the words "QUOTE", and "/QUOTE".  Place your cursor against, but outside, the bracket closing /QUOTE and make one return (i.e. press enter), to get to a new line.  Then start typing your new text.  It will all look the same in the edit box but if, when you've finished, you click on "preview" rather than "submit" you can see how the post will appear when submitted, while retaining the ability to make further edits via the edit box.  You can also edit the original post, as I have above to delete most of yours.  However, the ethics of doing this are a bit "sticky" - so you'll just have to make your own judgements!!!   Oh, and when you are satisfied, press "submit" below the edit box, and not "reply" under the preview pane!

 
userAndyStothert
Posted: 24 February 2008 7:31 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Posts: 554
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Brian Kirby - 2008-02-24 11:34 AM

AndyStothert - 2008-02-23 8:38 PM I wish I had half the eloquence and computer grasp which these other gentlemen (gits) seem to have mastered. How do you get a quote in the white box? ...............

You mean like this, Andy?  At the bottom right of each post there are two "buttons"; "Reply", and "Quote".

Click on the Quote button, and your reply edit box opens with the selected post already there, contained between square brackets enclosing the words "QUOTE", and "/QUOTE".  Place your cursor against, but outside, the bracket closing /QUOTE and make one return (i.e. press enter), to get to a new line.  Then start typing your new text.  It will all look the same in the edit box but if, when you've finished, you click on "preview" rather than "submit" you can see how the post will appear when submitted, while retaining the ability to make further edits via the edit box.  You can also edit the original post, as I have above to delete most of yours.  However, the ethics of doing this are a bit "sticky" - so you'll just have to make your own judgements!!!   Oh, and when you are satisfied, press "submit" below the edit box, and not "reply" under the preview pane!




Ah. Surely it can't be that easy?
Tomorrow shuld have news of John Yarwood's latest appointment with Fiat. I hope he experiences less smoke (from the van and Fiat) than I did.
I am now wondering if the treatment dished out to our Ducato in the 'test' doesn't warrant a new clutch?

 
usercolin
Posted: 23 February 2008 9:23 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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Posts: 5592
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Anybody waiting for spares? Fiat spares van was broken down on M1 yesterday, not the best of adverts!
 
userAndy T
Posted: 24 February 2008 10:45 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
252525
Location: Chirk, Clwyd, Mooveo 608, 2007. Ducato 100.


If it is the "characteristic of the vehicle" to junk a gearbox when reversed up a hill, surely that is taking credibility a tad too far!
Sorry for repeating part of one of my previous posts but,
"The six month protection (under the Sale of Goods Act) states that within that time period the consumer doesn't have to prove the goods are faulty; the retailer must prove otherwise. --- Repairs must be made in a reasonable time and the inherent fault corrected to make the product fit for purpose. If the same thing happens again, the product is still not fit for purpose. The law allows another chance to put things right, but after this (the owner) does not have to put up with having continuing repairs for recurrent faults and can demand a refund or damages."
Please note "retailer must prove otherwise" and "inherent fault" (making it unfit for purpose).

I think Andy Stothert has had his for more than six months but my six months is up on March 3rd and I will be ringing trading standards on Monday for more detailed advice. I can't afford another motorhome, this is the one and only.
I have been in touch with Fiat who rang back to speak to me about the fault (when I was out) but then changed their minds.
The contract is with the dealer and not Fiat and if the dealers have their yards full of slightly used and unsaleable Fiat Ducatos then I guess that will be when they start to listen.
Still, my limited experience of complaining via Trading Standards suggests that pessimism is in order.

Andy.
 
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 24 February 2008 12:09 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


50005000100010025
Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Hymer Exsis-i 578


There is no doubt that Fiat knows these vehicles have a defect.  However, the likelihood of anyone from Fiat actually admitting to this is fairly remote.  This forum alone is ample evidence why.  The market for LGVs of Ducato type is highly competitive, and a lot of money is at stake. 

Any quotable admission by anyone at Fiat that there is a fault would hand market share to the opposition on a plate.  Any fleet operator considering buying new vans will, by and large, audition the market, and each of the competing manufacturers will fall over themselves to tell their prospective customer about all the faults on their competitor's vans!  Having a printed admission from a Fiat employee that the current Ducatos have problems reversing uphill would be be far too good to pass up on. 

Because Fiat fully understands this, and consequently is staying "mum", I think it reasonable to assume someone in their R&D department has the most enormous headache, and is under huge pressure, to come up with a simple, cheap, easy, fix.  That they haven't yet found the golden bullet is probably no more that a reflection of a) the complexity of the problem, and b) their commercial need for the fix to be affordable.  However, I'll be very surprised if they don't come up with the fix in the relatively near future. 

Whether this will be applied to all vans, or only to those with an acknowledged problem, will largely depend on the cost of the fix.  Those of you with Fiat (but also, I think Peugeot and Citroen) bases, will have to decide whether you explore the reversing ability of your vehicles, or just trust nice Mr Fiat to do the fix anyhow. 

Me?  I'd look for the fault, and then make sure my Fiat garage (and the motorhome seller) were fully aware.  Why?  Because I'm a cynic, and I don't believe Fiat's (or anyone else's for that matter) accountants would sanction wholesale remedy of a fault unless it had been recorded.  Why should they?  It is possible that the fault varies across vehicles, and requires particular combinations of tolerances to manifest itself.  Where it isn't present, why fix it? 

If one of the above "tolerances" happens to be the need to reverse, under fine control, up a 1 in 5 hill, and you haven't yet tried that, you won't have recorded the fault, so your's probably won't get the fix.  Do bear that in mind as you set off from nice flat Lincolnshire (or Essex, Norfolk, Suffolk, the Vale of York etc) for that Alpine holiday!

 
userMel B
Posted: 24 February 2008 5:57 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


500050002000100100100
Location: E Yorks, 2012 Autocruise Accent on Fiat 2.3 130bhp


Just a thought ... Graham are you out there???????

Does Fiat have to tell you about this? It might come under the 'Freedom of Information Act', if there is a known fault they might have to tell you!

What d'ya think? I found this on the VOSA website, some of it makes interesting reading ....

http://www.vosa.gov.uk/vosacorp/repository/CONT065736.pdf
 
userthamesist
Posted: 24 February 2008 12:44 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
New User

Posts: 10



Just another statistic- we've an 07 Boxer 2.2 100bhp. It judders in reverse. If you rev it, it sorts it- and burns the clutch!
 
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 24 February 2008 1:01 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


50005000100010025
Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Hymer Exsis-i 578


And have you entered that fact here , pray?  http://tinyurl.com/27fr9b

If not, please do.  Thanks.

 
usertonyishuk
Posted: 24 February 2008 7:17 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


Stalwart

Posts: 1617
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Location: Horsham, SX.(10 Rapido 7090F)


You only have to judge Fiat's response along side:

Cannot remember which car Clio or similar where the bonnet flew open at speed because the safety lock did not function. Quite a few reported accidents at speed.

Volvos Throttle body problem which suddenly stopped the engine. Reported cases of it happening in the outside lane of motorways.


Audi TT, Speedo consule problems that caused the whole speedo / dashboard to be replaced at £500 a unit,

""Problem sir, what problem ? Never heard of that happening before Sir.""

Love the power of the internet

Rgds



 
userAndyStothert
Posted: 25 February 2008 6:05 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Today's snippet re the FIAT REVERSING JUDDERS is that I have finally got hold of a 2.2 litre 5 speed 100 PS model today and tried it up a moderately steep hill (but not the 1:5 ours got for the Dealer Destruction Derby) and yes it juddered.
But not nearly as badly as our 6 speed 2.3 litre does, or all the other 6 speed ones I've driven.
The only real difference I know of is the ratio of the final drive unit which is lower on the less powerful models.
So, even though I could very well be still barking up the wrong tree, it is looking like the reverse gear ratio, plus some other contributory factor (mountings etc) is the cause.
This is very bad. Sorting this out is something Fiat will not want to do.
IF YOU HAVE A FIAT (OR PEUGEOT/CITROEN) X250 GO AND REVERSE IT UP A STEEP HILL.
IF IT JUDDERS, WHICH IT WILL, COMPLAIN TO FIAT OFFICIALLY. Then let me know. This fault can cause premature gearbox and clutch failure. Don't wait until it happesn outside the warranty period.
 
userbrom
Posted: 26 February 2008 9:57 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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We recently borrowed two Boxers, a 100 PS, 5-speeder and a 120PS 6-speeder, and tested them backwards up a moderate hill (not a 1:5). The 120 was awful, however you approached the reversing procedure. If we gave it lots of welly and slipped the clutch it stood and shook, and smelt, and went nowhere. Try it without any throttle, gently, gently, and it stalled. It wasn't ours, so we didn't push it hard, but clearly there was a problem here. The 100, by contrast, gave us no trouble at all. Again, it was an ordinary hill, not Wrynose Pass, but it confirmed what we found testing a 100 PS 'Fifer', that it was OK in normal circumstances.
The problem with the bigger engine is not entirely new. Our previous '54 LWB Ducato with a 2.3 110PS engine and 5 speed box, was unable to reverse into our drive, which has a mild slope.
I was at the NEC show last week, so added my observations to the technical man, Andy Parker, on the 'Fiat Professional' stand. He promised that their boffins knew of the problem and were 'working on it'. Given that it took VW two years and several design re-vamps to sort out the leaking windows on their T5, I suspect it could take some time!
My suggestion would be for all new owners to test their 'van up a hill, and see if it has the problem. If so, contact Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen and maintain a polite dialogue IN WRITING until they sort it out. Try to get hold of an individual with some clout in the organisation and try to build up a relationship with them. If the manufacturers are innundated with paper on the question, it will be in their own interests to solve the matter, and your letters and emails mean you have the evidence to show you brought it to their attention within the warranty period.
Or, if you haven't already bought, insist on a trial of your prospective van, to include a reverse hill start, before signing...

 
userMike H
Posted: 26 February 2008 2:55 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Hi Brom.
You've detailed exactly what happened to my Auto-Trail Tracker with the 130ps engine. Not too steep a gradient, judder like mad, slip clutch, more revs, stood still and smoked like mad. Tried taking it easy and it stalled. It's gone in today for examination of the clutch and dmf. Will let you all know if they find anything or not, and what they do.
Mike H.
 
userAndyStothert
Posted: 26 February 2008 7:39 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Despite the noises which are starting to seep out of Fiat about addressing issues it could all be yet more delaying tactics and smoke signals.

Any of you out there with a Fiat, Peugeot or Citroen whch is juddering when reversing up hills should make an official complaint to the manufacturer. The more of us complain the more likely a solution.....

Anyway the whole point of tonights 'blog' is some information received from one of our number who has a juddering Peugeot.
All those with X250s which judder should contact Paul Traviner at VOSA (tel: 0117 954 3300) to express their concerns about the vehicle and specifically the safety aspects of reversing something up a steep hill which has no clutch control and has to be reversed at such high speeds to stop the juddering that it becomes unsafe.
Do this tomorrow and can you and let me know when you have.

ANY FIRST TIME VISITORS TO THE FORUM who own a new model Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen can you please go and reverse it up a steep hill and let me know if you are unhappy with its behaviour whilst reversing.

andystothert@blueyonder.co.uk
 
userfred grant
Posted: 26 February 2008 8:14 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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i as to push alice up any steep hills round yer, and that is definately a life threatening situation. it is for fred anyway my biddies.

f
 
userfred grant
Posted: 26 February 2008 8:14 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


Stalwart

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i as to push alice up any steep hills round yer, and that is definately a life threatening situation. it is for fred anyway my biddies.

f
 
userfred grant
Posted: 26 February 2008 8:15 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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i as to push alice up any steep hills round yer, and that is definately a life threatening situation. it is for fred anyway my biddies.

f
 
userfred grant
Posted: 26 February 2008 8:17 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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stopped judderinn now my ansums - in case u should ask like.

foolishfred
 
userRoyH
Posted: 26 February 2008 8:42 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Latest CC Magazine page 10 Sevel vehicles top the list of recalls. No mention of juddering though.
 
usermichele
Posted: 26 February 2008 8:58 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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Location: Autotrail Chieftain G


I wonder why some people aint honest are they

makes me wonder if there isnt anything in MMM about it and people dont or can't use the forum are they blindly being caught . very sad all that money to find out you have real problems.

Edited by michele 2008-02-26 8:59 PM
 
userAndyStothert
Posted: 26 February 2008 10:24 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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The lack of editorial coment in MMM is due to the delay in a situation arising and the date of publication.
And, to be fair, I dithered about telling anyone what I suspected (that the problem was widespread) until I was fairly sure about the facts.
So until the forum brought the size of the problem to light the Editors of MMM only knew about one case of juddering and a broken gearbox - mine.
I should perhaps have let them know what I was planning to do, and how big I thought the issue was, but hindsight is like looking up peoples backsides.
So we can have no beef with the two loonies from Devon who construct the magazine.
Some of the suits are another matter.
 
userGM6VXB
Posted: 26 February 2008 10:36 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Posts: 2



The judder problem experienced is not actually caused by the clutch but by torquing up the complete drive train to a point that something has to give, which is usually the driver who either slips the clutch, increases revs or stops and has another go. Seriously though it would normally be tyre adhession but with all the weight being transfered onto the driven wheels while reversing, the clutch is the weakest link in the chain and could slip and also cause judder. The main problem seems to lie with either the engine mountings or torque tube (if there is one fitted). This is a common problem on many cars as well, but shows up more on a 3.5 ton motorohome.
Basically the 'white van man' Ducato normally only runs his vehicle half loaded, so all up weight would always be less than a motor home in running trim.
The Only difference I can see between a 'Maxi' chassis Ducato and an X250 is that the rear chassis is different, and the 2.3 Litre engined version has been 'tweaked' to give a different power curve. All the engine, and transmission parts would appear to be the same. So we are running a vehicle near to the maximum allowable rating all of the time which will show up any design issues more than the standard product.
I have noticed that the engine mounting appears to have more give when in reverse than when moving forward. This indicates either asymetrical mountings or a torque tube, I cannot see a tube fitted but not crawled right under the van for a look yet. This issue may also be the reason why many owners have commented on a thump when starting up the engine, sudden torque on the mounts causing the noise. With a transverse engine layout the engine under torque will try to rock back and forth, so a rod fitted to the top of the engine will limit this. Problem is it also transfers engine noise and vibration to the cab area as well. I have not heard any complaints about noisy cabs on the new Ducato's but I am sure this would cause a few if fitted without some form of damping.
There has also been talk about gear ratio's. I sat down with the tech specs for all engines and worked out what the speed in 1st and reverse would be a 1000RPM for each variant. Figures below:
2.2L 100 MultiJet Reverse = 5.14 First = 4.35
2.3L 130 MultiJet Reverse = 4.64 First = 5.084
2.3L 130 Maxi Chassis Reverse = 4.0 First = 4.38
3L 160 Reverse = 4.64 First = 4.54
3L 160 Maxi Chassis Reverse = 4.58 First = 4.49

Figures for 'Maxi' chassis presume 16 inch wheels, though my Lunar H601 (2.3L) is fitted with 15 inch so goes even slower in reverse ! and is 5MPH slower than indicated on the speedo at 60MPH which calculations show spot on if 16 inch wheel were fitted.
Lower reverse ratios could also be a cure, but what is the ratio of white vans to motorhomes, and is it financially worth FIAT fitting different ratios for X250 chassis. After all, the FIAT part of the motorhome is probably much less than £15,000 and any changes would have to be reflected in price in an already competitve market.
As you can see from the figures the problem should be worse on a 2.2 Litre vehicle, but how many 3.5 ton motorhomes are based on the shorter chassis. Most complaints seem to be from the bigger vans fitted on the Maxi or Al-Ko chassis which will be nearer the 3.5 ton limit.

Driving style can cause the problem to become worse, lots of threads about this though. I only have problems in 'panic' moments, but have not experienced any serious tramp.
BTW I am not a mechanic, just a Telecomunication engineer, but used to like taking cars apart before the advent of electonic engineering.

Martin
 
userClive
Posted: 26 February 2008 11:10 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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Nice shack Martin, in the roof like mine. Makes hanging the racks of components a bit awkward though!
Fantastic take off from Frazerborough. Better take off than a Ducato without doubt - well backwards anyway!

www.motts.dsl.pipex.com
 
userzulurita
Posted: 27 February 2008 2:39 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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Tried my Fiat .23L 130 multijet as I was leaving Minehead site on Monday. It has a steep hill. so stopped and put mh into reerse gear and started to reverse and I could feel the judder so stopped as I didn't want any damage.

Also from Williton had to stop on a hill due to road works and found that starting off in 1st gear uphill is not good either!!!

Have contacted Fiat today to report and obtain my case number and also contacted Vosa
 
userfred grant
Posted: 27 February 2008 8:07 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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steep hill in minehead my luvver, you must come from linconshire?

flatulentfred
 
userdwaviation
Posted: 27 February 2008 10:24 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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I dream of having just a reversing judder... I split a fuel line on the A14 today, lost power and died on the non hard shoulder Judging by the amount of smoke I suspect I might have a problem with a piston or two as a result Currently sat outside the Peugeot dealers. Let's hope the warranty is worth the paper its written on....

May 07 plate - 6000 miles
 
userzulurita
Posted: 28 February 2008 4:00 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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Posts: 155
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No Devon Fred.

There is a steep drive from Minehead CC site reception up to the pitches.
 
userTracker
Posted: 28 February 2008 8:39 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


zulurita - 2008-02-28 4:00 PM

No Devon Fred.

There is a steep drive from Minehead CC site reception up to the pitches.


Yes, it is a steep site - very steep in places - and so are some of the pitches - so take some very large ramps if you go there!
 
userfred grant
Posted: 29 February 2008 8:15 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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Tracker - 2008-02-28 8:39 PM

zulurita - 2008-02-28 4:00 PM

No Devon Fred.

There is a steep drive from Minehead CC site reception up to the pitches.


Yes, it is a steep site - very steep in places - and so are some of the pitches - so take some very large ramps if you go there!


SO whos cider were you on when you stayed at minehead tracker my luvver. for zummerset, or even deben, the pitches cood be best described as fairly level. in fact, me old biddy, some pitchers are so level they cood be best described at horizontal. unlike fred after a session at the local kings arms.

farragofred
 
userfred grant
Posted: 29 February 2008 8:15 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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Tracker - 2008-02-28 8:39 PM

zulurita - 2008-02-28 4:00 PM

No Devon Fred.

There is a steep drive from Minehead CC site reception up to the pitches.


Yes, it is a steep site - very steep in places - and so are some of the pitches - so take some very large ramps if you go there!


SO whos cider were you on when you stayed at minehead tracker my luvver. for zummerset, or even deben, the pitches cood be best described as fairly level. in fact, me old biddy, some pitchers are so level they cood be best described at horizontal. unlike fred after a session at the local kings arms.

farragofred
 
userAndyStothert
Posted: 28 February 2008 8:34 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Just in case you were wondering if all the juddering Fiats were motorhomes Tonight's Tale of Woe from the abominal list of owners whose complaints are being ignored by Fiat concerns a van.
Admittedly not white, but Brian Reid is a self employed joiner who bought a LWB 2.3 litre 6 speed Ducato in November last year.
He immediately notice the vilolent juddering in reverse gear when attempting to reverse up a hill.
To make matters worse Brian tows a trailer and he recksons that it impossible to reverse the trailer anywhere, level or uphill, as the juddering is that bad.
Fiat have told him that the juddering is a characteristic of the vehicle, shrugged their shoulders and told him to go away.
The problem with the trailer is not their concern, apparently.
Brian is absolutely sure that the juddering will lead to premature failure of other components such as the gearbox or clutch.
He placed a thread on the 'fiatforum' web site relating his experiencies and questioned the wisdom of anyone buying a Fiat Ducato until this (very undesirable) 'charcteristic' was rectified.

Fiat haven't actually been silly enough yet to tell me that my broken gearbox was just a characteristic of the vehicle, nor the smoking clutch when a steep hill is tackled, but I'm expecting it anyday now.
But surely in telling customers that this major component destroying juddering is a 'characteristic' they are admitting they are all doing it?

IF YOU HAVE A FIAT/PEUGEOT X250 MODEL BASED MOTORHOME (2007 onwards) FIND A STEEP (1:5 or steeper) HILL AND REVERSE IT UP THE HILL. IF IT JUDDERS IT IS IN YOUR OWN BEST INTEREST TO COMPLAIN TO FIAT. DO NOT BE FOBBED OFF.

If you want further information, or wish to help get this
matter resolved email me - andystothert@blueyonder.co.uk
 
userAndyStothert
Posted: 29 February 2008 6:25 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Tonight's unlucky victim of the Fiat Ducato fiasco is Mike Hoodless.
He bought his Ducato 2.3 litre 6 speed Auto Trail Tracker from Elite Motorhomes in Banbury, and on getting it home and reversing it up the drive, which is fairly steep, the 'van juddered like mad.
He went to his local Fiat dealer, Stormont in Dunstable, who agreed that indeed something was definitely not right with the juddering clutch or gearbox, and booked it in to investigate.
However when they rang Fiat to get authorisation for the work Fiat said they's send one of their technicains down to the garage to exmamine the van.
Of course the Fiat technician agreed that it was juddering, but said they are all like that - ITS A CHARACTERISTIC OF THE VEHICLE.

One which eats clutches and gearboxes, but hey, what the hell, what's the odd clutch or gearbox?

DONT BE FOBBED OFF. IF IT JUDDERING INSIST ON IT BEING SORTED OUT.
FIND A HILL - REVERSE IT UP - IT IT JUDDERS COMPLAIN TO FIAT.

I
 
userRoyH
Posted: 29 February 2008 7:08 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Thought I'd try ro get them all to the top at once
 
userAndyStothert
Posted: 1 March 2008 10:54 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Does anyone out there have a decent enough understanding of the internet AND the French or Italian languages to find out if there are simlar concerns about the Fiats and Peugeots being aired in Europe? German as well come to think of it.
It may help in the end, or it may not?
 
userTracker
Posted: 1 March 2008 5:21 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


AndyStothert - 2008-03-01 10:54 AM

Does anyone out there have a decent enough understanding of the internet AND the French or Italian languages to find out if there are simlar concerns about the Fiats and Peugeots being aired in Europe? German as well come to think of it.
It may help in the end, or it may not?


Perhaps someone at Warners may have 'connections' with journalists in other countries who may be able to help?
 
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 1 March 2008 6:40 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


50005000100010025
Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Hymer Exsis-i 578


The reversing judder has been mentioned once in a letter last year to Le Monde du Camping-Car.  A  quick search got me five other mentions on French motorhome forums.  Many of the French live in Flats, and put their motorhomes into storage over winter, so winter use is not so common as may be assumed.  This is still quite a new model, and many will only have ordered their new vehicles after last years major RV shows.  These vehicles will only now be being delivered, so I don't expect the rumpus to really start until well into the summer. 

All those who referred to the problem said it arose when reversing on steep hills.  By and large, this is not that common an activity, and it will take a while before folk become aware there is a problem.  One owner, in particular, was so impressed with his new toy he seemed to be prepared to forgive its inability to back up hills.

However, on that evidence, it I'm sure it will be around on the German and Italian forums as well.



Edited by Brian Kirby 2008-03-01 6:41 PM
 
userMel B
Posted: 2 March 2008 8:48 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


500050002000100100100
Location: E Yorks, 2012 Autocruise Accent on Fiat 2.3 130bhp


AndyStothert - 2008-03-01 10:54 AM

Does anyone out there have a decent enough understanding of the internet AND the French or Italian languages to find out if there are simlar concerns about the Fiats and Peugeots being aired in Europe? German as well come to think of it.
It may help in the end, or it may not?


Andy, try PMing Randonner as she lives in France, she may be able to help.
 
userzulurita
Posted: 1 March 2008 5:17 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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The French motorhome magazines: Camping Car Magazine etc have had articles relating to water ingress etc
 
userAndyStothert
Posted: 1 March 2008 9:44 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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This is becoming a kind of diary of despair, and tonight's unconnected, but vaguely associated thoughts turn to the second-hand market for these vehicles.
I've had four emails from ex-owners who bought the new Fiat, fairly soon became aware of juddering in reverse problem and because they use the vehicles in hilly places, complained to Fiat about the juddering.
They were met with Fiat's then standard fob-off telling them, tough, they are within 'Fiat's designated operating parameters' and that was that.
So, being of bigger financial girth than most of us (or predicting the aggro involved in trying to get it sorted out) they went back to the motorhome dealer and part exchanged them for a combination of Mercedes and Renault motorhomes. Spending many more thousands of pounds.

Which made me wonder.........
Fiat are now admitting they are all juddering as they have changed their fob-off line to 'It's a characteristic of the vehicle (so sod off we've got your money and that's all we wanted anyway), it's just like all the others, so how can it be a defect?'
But what happens in two or three years time?
Do you want to buy a second-hand motorhome for perhaps £30,000 which has probably got a gearbox on its last legs? Or a clutch about to throw its hand in?
Will your three year old Fiat (not rectified) be worth anything when Fiat have been compelled to make the necessary changes and only modified the ones owned by those who have shouted loudest?
Will we able to tell which ones have been sorted out?
Buying a second-hand Fiat will be the same lottery as buying a new one.
All this and I could have bought a Renault for two grand less, and had no stress?

Tomorrow the matter of our warranties, and their apparent worth.

IF YOU HAVE A 2007/2008 X250 FIAT/PEUGEOT MOTORHOME IT HAS WHAT FIAT CALL A 'CHARACTERISTIC' JUDDERING WHICH PUTS THE CLUTCH AND GEARBOX AT RISK OF PREMATURE FAILURE.
REVERSE IT UP A STEEP HILL (about 1:5) AND DECIDE FOR YOURSELF IF THIS IS A CHARACTERISTIC BASED IN SOUND ENGINEERING PRINCIPALS.

IF NOT COMPLAIN TO FIAT AND INSIST ON IT BEING FIXED. DO NOT ACCEPT FIAT'S NOW CHARACTERISTIC FOB-OFF, NO MATTER HOW POLITELY IT IS OFFERED.

After that let me know - andystothert@blueyonder.co.uk

Edited by AndyStothert 2008-03-01 9:46 PM
 
userClive
Posted: 1 March 2008 10:05 PM
Subject: JUDDERGATE
 


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News is spreading far and wide across many forums Andy.
Its new name is "juddergate"

Fiat must be starting to feel the heat by now with converters looking more favourably at Merc and Renault bases for new models.
Also ordinary white van man has said he is brassed of with reliability problems with Fiat Ducato as well.
Keep up the good work.
Loss of the ambulance business will be next I guess.
C.
 
userRoyH
Posted: 2 March 2008 4:24 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Moved to the top
 
userAndyStothert
Posted: 2 March 2008 5:31 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Thanks, I shall try the Randonner when I work out how to work it out....


Today's Depressing Ducato moment concerns warranties.
All those who bought their Fiat from a domestic source have, in theory got 3 years warranty, whilst those who purchased imported vehicles have only two years.
So it would appear that the clock is ticking a little more urgently (for finding a cure) for the owners of the imports than we who bought here.
In some respects this is true - if you find yourself with no choice but to reverse up a steep hill within three years and the gearbox drops to bits (as happened to ours at two months old) then it should get replaced under warranty.
After two years the owners of the imports may have expensive repair bills to face.
But what if the clutch goes? And this is quite likely.
Well here we are all on sticky ground, no matter when it happens, because the clutch is an item which is subject to manufacturers telling you it is 'fair wear and tear' or in other words, it wore out because of your driving technique. More tellingly I don't think it's covered in the 3rd year anyway on a van bought in this country.

So, in view of Fiat's unsympathetic approach to customers over the juddering, and indeed originally telling us all our driving technique was at fault - and not the vehicle - how do you think they will treat a claim for a ruined clutch because you have had to rev it so hard to make it move backwards up hills?
Is the Fiat warranty worth anything?
We all bought new vehicles for the security of knowing we would have stress free motoring for a period of time, but what have we got from Fiat? Nothing but aggro and dishonesty.

IF YOU'VE ALREADY BOUGHT ONE OF THESE VEHICLES GO AND REVERSE IT UP A STEEP HILL AND EXPERIENCE THE JUDDER.
FIAT NOW ADMIT THAT IT OCCURS (AFTER REFUTING IT ORIGINALLY) ON ALL OF THEM BUT SAY IT IS A CHARACTERISTIC OF THE VEHICLE.
IF YOU AREN'T HAPPY WITH FIAT'S EXPLANATION E-MAIL ME -
andystothert@blueyonder.co.uk

On the other hand if you haven't bought one, and are considering it well..................
 
userAbb
Posted: 2 March 2008 9:12 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
2525
Location: W.Midland


Hello Andy,

My mother tongue is French and I'll be glad to be of help if you wish me to translate a letter to French for you to send to Camping Car and Le Monde du Camping Car magazines.
 
userClive
Posted: 2 March 2008 11:40 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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Posts: 3138
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Location: New Milton


Come on Andy, Go for it.
 
userAndyStothert
Posted: 3 March 2008 9:10 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Allo Allo,
I shall formulate a plan. A cunning plan.
 
userRoyH
Posted: 3 March 2008 3:58 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Hi Andy

I spotted these two websites mentioned in an answer to a reader's query in the Honest John column in the motoring section of the Saturday Telegraph. They may be worth contacting if it comes to some legal issue.

http://www.lawanswers.co.uk/

http://www.roadsidelawyer.co.uk/

In fact Honest John himself may be interested since it is such a major issue so may also be worth a try

www.honestjohn.co.uk

Keep going, nothing wins like persistance.
 
userdiydoolittle
Posted: 3 March 2008 8:49 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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RoyH - 2008-03-03 3:58 PM

Hi Andy

I spotted these two websites mentioned in an answer to a reader's query in the Honest John column in the motoring section of the Saturday Telegraph. They may be worth contacting if it comes to some legal issue.

http://www.lawanswers.co.uk/

http://www.roadsidelawyer.co.uk/

In fact Honest John himself may be interested since it is such a major issue so may also be worth a try

www.honestjohn.co.uk

Keep going, nothing wins like persistance.


Tried this for scuttlegate not interested as doesn't do vans!!!!

ditto this

You could always invite BBC Watchdog in for a cuppa tea in the M/home.

BBC Watchdog enjoys a good hand tohand with motor manufacturers (Volvo and the Clio problems where picked up by them.)


Never got a reply but probably worth another go as it is a different problem. Still think best bet is VOSA.
Saw on another forum some of them got a result with a complaint being upheld against Peugeot and this was through VOSA.

Edited by diydoolittle 2008-03-03 8:52 PM
 
userMel B
Posted: 3 March 2008 8:56 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


500050002000100100100
Location: E Yorks, 2012 Autocruise Accent on Fiat 2.3 130bhp


What about good old Jezza Clarkson???? Or even the opposition, Fifth gear??? Anyone got any links with them?

Or even James May seeing as he and Oz Clark recently did the 'lets go off in a big Winny to California and get sloshed most days' TV series?

Michelle, does your mate Tommy have any contacts???

Edited by Mel B 2008-03-03 8:56 PM
 
usermichele
Posted: 3 March 2008 9:49 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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Um Tommy Walsh luv could make wooden Motorhomes (In Yorkshire Accent)
e up luv ) Better than Fiat make them ones that judder lol.

Mel, I doubt it could always ask and find out though I was thinking of that LYnn Falsy wood something like that she's got balls ..If she gets enough letters she'll be there . I'm off to do a little research on the French M/home forums ...
 
usertonyishuk
Posted: 3 March 2008 4:35 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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You could always invite BBC Watchdog in for a cuppa tea in the M/home.

BBC Watchdog enjoys a good hand tohand with motor manufacturers (Volvo and the Clio problems where picked up by them.)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/consumer/tv_and_radio/watchdog/reports/transport/transport_20080116.shtml

Et al ( seems that Vauhall have the old park it here , find it there, problem now. )

Rgds
 
userShaun
Posted: 3 March 2008 6:34 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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I can't help feeling that if Fiat now acknowledge this 'characteristic', they won't be able to ignore a mountain of claims for clutches and gearboxes, as and when they fail. Surely, there's a precedent been set elsewhere in the past, which will serve as to a guide to what happens where a vehicle manufacturer suggests a perceived problem is merely a characteristic, but which then transpires to be a widespread fault?

Shaun
 
userfred grant
Posted: 3 March 2008 7:37 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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the only precedent is the bunch of loonies on this forum my luvvers. no one takes any notice of loonies me ansums (or precedents for that matter), so u really as to get together (freds orchard out of apple falling season will do) thrash it out and form a rear guard action all together. )

fusciousfred
 
userRoyH
Posted: 3 March 2008 8:32 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Fred,

Will you be able to reverse up Pennpillick Hill in the snow. I used to be able to see the hill from my house in Par.
 
userAndyStothert
Posted: 4 March 2008 8:46 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Greetings all,
It's 8.35am I've been up hours trying to catch up on the work as this Fiat thing is now consuming my life..........

I spoke to the man in charge at Fiat Customer Care yesterday and he confirms that this issue is also the subject of many complaints all over Europe. And from white van man too.
But obviosuly he doesn't agree that because everybody is complaining, or that clutches are burning out all over Europe, or that geraboxes are now a bit scarce, that there is a fault in them.
Oh no, he reckons they are operating as designed.
That is the latest terminology - 'OPERATING AS DESIGNED'.
I asked him to enlighten me as to the meaning of this but he couldn't.
Does anybody know what this means?

Fiat are having 'top level' meeting about this on Wednesday, probably to discuss the next pathetic fob-off phrase.

The list of unhappy owners is still growing but it could do to be a bit bigger yet to interest the people with power in the media, so go and do the reversing test up a steep hill in your Fiat/Peugeot X250 model motorhome. IF IT JUDDERS LET ME KNOW - andystothert@blueyonder.co.uk
 
userrupert123
Posted: 4 March 2008 11:57 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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AndyStothert - 2008-03-04 8:46 AM

Greetings all,
It's 8.35am I've been up hours trying to catch up on the work as this Fiat thing is now consuming my life..........

I spoke to the man in charge at Fiat Customer Care yesterday and he confirms that this issue is also the subject of many complaints all over Europe. And from white van man too.
But obviosuly he doesn't agree that because everybody is complaining, or that clutches are burning out all over Europe, or that geraboxes are now a bit scarce, that there is a fault in them.
Oh no, he reckons they are operating as designed.
That is the latest terminology - 'OPERATING AS DESIGNED'.
I asked him to enlighten me as to the meaning of this but he couldn't.
Does anybody know what this means?

Fiat are having 'top level' meeting about this on Wednesday, probably to discuss the next pathetic fob-off phrase.

The list of unhappy owners is still growing but it could do to be a bit bigger yet to interest the people with power in the media, so go and do the reversing test up a steep hill in your Fiat/Peugeot X250 model motorhome. IF IT JUDDERS LET ME KNOW - andystothert@blueyonder.co.uk


Come on Andy are you not going a little 'over the top' now. As a motoring journalist you must be aware of how the motor industry works with regard to complaints. Fiat will not act and have a recall if they do not trigger whatever their required number of complaints is, it would be a fairly low number in terms of vehicles sold, maybe around 500 not sure with commercials. In this case it is obviously not many, I to have looked on other forums, including the Ducato one, and a couple in Europe and it is hardly mentioned, bearing in mind complaints or problems on forums always give a biased view in that good things, lack of problems, are rarely talked about. However I do understand your fustration, I to have had problems with new cars in the past. What I do not understand is why you simply did not throw the whole thing in the dealers lap who sold you the van, it is with them you have the case. If they refused to fix it get an independant engineers report and take the dealer the court. I went down this route once and when faced with the court action the dealer together with the manufactuer got things sorted. Hope you get your van sorted but until Fiat get enough complaints I believe they will not act on it as a recall.

Incidently does anyone know how the hell you can use a spell checker on posts?

Edited by rupert123 2008-03-04 11:58 AM
 
userRoyH
Posted: 4 March 2008 12:38 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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A bit hard that, I think, Rupert123

Andy's doing a great job for all who may be unfortunate enough to have spent their hard earned (possibly life savings) on one of these vehicles.

He could have just dealt with his own, as you suggest, and maybe got it sorted and sod the rest ,but he chooses to to help others.

He needs all the support he can get.
 
userwebbocj
Posted: 4 March 2008 1:42 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Not wishing to be negative, but Watchdog last night highlighted the ongoing Renault Clio bonnet saga. 1200no. known cases of a really dangerous problem, but Renault still say it's a driver fault (not shutting the bonnet correctly) or lack of adequate servicing (oiling). It's going to be an uphill battle for us Andy re Juddergate!!!
Chris
 
userBasil
Posted: 4 March 2008 9:18 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
200010010010025


webbocj - 2008-03-04 1:42 PM

Not wishing to be negative, but Watchdog last night highlighted the ongoing Renault Clio bonnet saga. 1200no. known cases of a really dangerous problem, but Renault still say it's a driver fault (not shutting the bonnet correctly) or lack of adequate servicing (oiling). It's going to be an uphill battle for us Andy re Juddergate!!!
Chris


Yes but this one is a fault of the owners/ servicers for not looking after it. My son owns one of these Clio's and has had it from new and when I compare the condition and quality of his bonnet latches compared to the rusty gunk covered one shown on Watchdog I can understand why both VOSA and Renault are saying it is an owner generated problem.
It just isn't in the same league as either the Sevel reversing or water ingress problems or the one on the Vauxhall Frontera where a faulty manufactured catch was actualy breaking and causing the problem. For the Renault bonnet to open both catches need to be so dirty or corroded that they do not move correctly to their locked position.
In this instance, not for the first time, Watchdog are taking things out of context and out of proportion IMO.

Bas

P.S. If nothing else it will bump this to the top.

Edited by Basil 2008-03-04 9:20 PM
 
userAndyStothert
Posted: 4 March 2008 6:22 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Yep, you're right about the Renault thing, but circumstances are a little different here. The Renault problem was a fault on a previous model and it's well known that the current model isn't thus afflicted, so sales of the current model probably aren't being harmed that much.
With the Fiat this is still a current model and undermining consumer confidence is part of what this onging discussion is about. Until that happens Fiat will not take a blind bit of notice of us.
As for Rupert 123 well firstly can I say that I'm not a journalist never have been and never will be. I'm a motorcaravanner who makes a living from taking photos of the scenery.
Secondly, the whole point of this particular defect is that it only arises in what may be rare circumstances for the average motorcaravanner, so complainst about this defect will only arise after those circumstances are encountered.
If Rupert had been following this properly he may have picked up on this.

The important thing here is the potential which every single one of these vehicles carries to fail very expensively at some time in its life as a result of a Fiat blunder, rather than bad luck or owner mis-treatment.

As for the number of complaints being the defining reason for a recall this is a nonsense.
Everything is costed against the potential to affect sales, and opposed to the possible cost of the re-engineering to fix the defect. It appears that what we have here is an expensive fix for what may be only a small percentage of owners who will encounter the effects.
Does that mean we should accept that Fiat can trample all over the owners who have spent all this money for a vehicle which should do the job but doesn't?
And finally Rupert123, if you'd been keeping up and reading all this before commenting so glibly, you'd know that we have a custom converted van which we had to wait in the queue for, and that the converters offered us our money back.
But why should he, a hard working self employed individual lose thousands of pounds because Fiat have got it wrong? Why, when I chose which base vehicle to use, should he, who probably has less than me take the hit for Fiat's incompetence?
And - this is what bothered me most - I know this vehicle is defective, so in my heart I also know I can't sell it or let anybody else re-sell it because that would be wrong. A simple issue of right or wrong.
I know I see things in simple terms, and perhaps too black and white sometimes, but we are what we are, Fiat are being dishonest, and again, that is simply, wrong.
 
userrupert123
Posted: 4 March 2008 10:41 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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AndyStothert - 2008-03-04 6:22 PM

Yep, you're right about the Renault thing, but circumstances are a little different here. The Renault problem was a fault on a previous model and it's well known that the current model isn't thus afflicted, so sales of the current model probably aren't being harmed that much.
With the Fiat this is still a current model and undermining consumer confidence is part of what this onging discussion is about. Until that happens Fiat will not take a blind bit of notice of us.
As for Rupert 123 well firstly can I say that I'm not a journalist never have been and never will be. I'm a motorcaravanner who makes a living from taking photos of the scenery.
Secondly, the whole point of this particular defect is that it only arises in what may be rare circumstances for the average motorcaravanner, so complainst about this defect will only arise after those circumstances are encountered.
If Rupert had been following this properly he may have picked up on this.

The important thing here is the potential which every single one of these vehicles carries to fail very expensively at some time in its life as a result of a Fiat blunder, rather than bad luck or owner mis-treatment.

As for the number of complaints being the defining reason for a recall this is a nonsense.
Everything is costed against the potential to affect sales, and opposed to the possible cost of the re-engineering to fix the defect. It appears that what we have here is an expensive fix for what may be only a small percentage of owners who will encounter the effects.
Does that mean we should accept that Fiat can trample all over the owners who have spent all this money for a vehicle which should do the job but doesn't?
And finally Rupert123, if you'd been keeping up and reading all this before commenting so glibly, you'd know that we have a custom converted van which we had to wait in the queue for, and that the converters offered us our money back.
But why should he, a hard working self employed individual lose thousands of pounds because Fiat have got it wrong? Why, when I chose which base vehicle to use, should he, who probably has less than me take the hit for Fiat's incompetence?
And - this is what bothered me most - I know this vehicle is defective, so in my heart I also know I can't sell it or let anybody else re-sell it because that would be wrong. A simple issue of right or wrong.
I know I see things in simple terms, and perhaps too black and white sometimes, but we are what we are, Fiat are being dishonest, and again, that is simply, wrong.


No it is certainly not nonsense, all recalls are subject to numbers. Now some are very small numbers, if for example it is a possible brake failure it will take very few complaints to trigger a recall but something like this judder will take quite a few. I was not aware you had a custom van but the principle still applies. I still wish you luck with your problem but as it seems to be going nowhere just suggested another approach, if you personally do not wish to apply it then fine but others might. I at least made a suggesttion which is more than the hear hear brigade have made. Also if you bothered to read my comments properly you would see I sympathise with you and others and agree with your complaints but just happen to think you have gone about it the wrong way.

 
userTracker
Posted: 5 March 2008 9:21 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


For what it is worth I think Andy is doing a good job in difficult circumstances with a recalcitrant manufacturer.

What really bothers me is the after warranty potential for expensive disasters.

When the three years is up those who have had their van from new and serviced by a main dealer who knows it's history might have some slim hope of a come back against the maker if the problem had been well documented as being an issue on that specific van - but I wouldn't hold my breath!

Others who buy a used van, especially non forum buyers of whom there are lots of unsuspecting, will probably be less lucky as they will not know anything about it until a clutch, transmission, engine mount, or gearbox fails unexpectedly - and expensively.

How do you then prove that it may have been due to a manufacturing or design defect or just down to abuse given by the previous 'one careful owner'. That is not a jibe at anyone on here - but it does happen - especially with hire vans!

I never buy a new van as I prefer one about a year or two old with a some warranty, and that is why I will not be buying a new model Ducato / Boxer based van when I change. That's a shame because it limits my choice, but hey never mind as it's better to know now than after a £2,000 gearbox job!

I don't know whether any of the commercial motor magazines have picked up on this yet but fleet owners, like The ever helpful Euroserv, and the many one man white van men might well be interested in the reversing issue as having the potential to ruin their business reliability - and the loss of that market might well promote a speedy solution?

 
userShaun
Posted: 5 March 2008 10:03 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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No-one's commented on my question as to how matters will be affected by extended warranties, so I'll explore it a bit further. They are there, in theory, to pick up the pieces on major components once the manufacturer's warranty has expired. The underwriter puts its trust in the general robustness of the chassis vehicle, then insists it is serviced in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions. Presumably, as a general underwriting risk concept, the collective warranty premiums exceed the collective payout for mechanical breakdowns.

Looking at my own extended warranty, the exclusions include the likes of neglect, corrosion and abuse of the vehicle. It's feasible that underwriters may try and wriggle out of their responsibilities as a matter of course, due to such arbitrary factors. Does anyone have any experience of related claims? Are the Sevel chassis problems under discussion here likely to be rejected in future years on the basis of misuse or neglect?

Opinions welcome!

Shaun
 
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 5 March 2008 8:46 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Hymer Exsis-i 578


The most important thing to examine in these so called extended warranties, is which components are covered, and which not.  For example, I would expect the obvious casualty of the relatively high revs required while reversing to be the clutch.  So, does your warranty cover clutch replacement, or does it get classed in the same way as tyres and brake pads, a consumable, and therefore excluded?
 
userTracker
Posted: 5 March 2008 8:59 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


These warranties will cover clutches and brakes but only in so far as oil contamination or in some cases 'mechanical failure' as opposed to wearing out and, even if they will consider such a claim, expect a serious deduction for any wear and tear prior to failure.

The failed parts may well have to be sent to the insurers for examination before they will pay out. Meanwhile you are left with paying up front if you want your van back, and just hope that you will get some cash back.
 
userRoyH
Posted: 4 March 2008 7:10 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Hear Hear Andy. Well said.
 
usermichele
Posted: 4 March 2008 8:04 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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Location: Autotrail Chieftain G


nice one Andy .
 
userdiydoolittle
Posted: 4 March 2008 8:13 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Else where some one has said that VOSA are waiting to take this further whatever that means

Edited by diydoolittle 2008-03-04 8:16 PM
 
userShaun
Posted: 4 March 2008 8:31 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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What I haven't yet seen mentioned is the likely effects of extended warranties. I have one simply because my van came with it, which I've transferred into my name. I see it covers the base vehicle (the conversion also) for five years.

With the various Sevel faults which are evident, all sorts of questions spring to mind. The first is why do underwriters risk paying out big bucks for years three, four and five of a vehicle's life, for new base vehicles, knowing that they will have their fair share of faults, due to inherent 'teething problems' - especially those which are classed as vehicle 'characteristics,' which the likes of Fiat won't voluntarily fix unless held at gunpoint?

One can imagine the underwriters telling the likes of Fiat, the moment the likes of leaky windscreens and knackered clutches/gearboxes manifest themselves, to get their act together or extended insurance won't be available for them. Also imagine going to a dealer and being told there's no extended cover for your new pride and joy because the underwriters don't have faith in the base vehicle once the manufacturer's warranty expires.

But, this doesn't seem to happen; these warranties are available and the underwriters will be aware of the bad press about the new Sevel base. Looking at the various exclusions with the policy I have, there's no mention of "Your vehicle won't be covered under this extended warranty if Fiat fails to rectify, during its own warranty period, crap design and build quality." It does say that failure of components which are the subject of a recall aren't covered, but that's only fair.

So, what do you think about the relationship between the problems under discussion here and the extended warranties which in theory should cover any failure of related components once the manufacturer's warranty has expired?

Shaun
 
userfred grant
Posted: 4 March 2008 9:02 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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wish i could get someone to extend my warranty my biddies, i'm 77 and looking for at least anothe three yers.

any takers me ansums???

frickinfred
 
usermichele
Posted: 4 March 2008 9:18 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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Location: Autotrail Chieftain G


You keep going down that coach an horses and Alice will extend you warranty Fred.


 
userRoyH
Posted: 4 March 2008 9:26 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Get Alice to take you to the bottom of Penpillick and then you run up to the top, that'll keep yer fit me old mate Fred. Then her can give yer a good rub down.
 
userDonYates
Posted: 4 March 2008 10:30 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Posts: 21

Location: Derby : 2007 LHD Hobby Van


I’ve not read all the posts on this topic so apologies if I’m repeating what has been said previously, but have you considered getting the Consumers Association ‘Which magazine’ involved.

I know it’s no consolation to you folks who have a new Fiat but there but for the grace of God and all that I could have gone down that same road. Some time ago I had a Fiat Punto 1.4, which had terminal clutch failure at 20000 miles/ 3 years, short time after the gearbox failed. Needless to say Fiat were not interested in free replacement. I subsequently found out after getting rid of the car that Fiat had put in the same clutch as in the smaller engined versions and was not up to the job.

After that experience I vowed never to have another Fiat, so number one on my list of motorhome criteria when selecting a new van last year was, yes you’ve guessed, base vehicle can be anything but Fiat.
As you will notice I have a Ford based van and yes I have my fingers crossed, so far so good.
I wish you all the best in your endeavour’s to get Fiat to do the honourable thing.


Don
 
userAndyStothert
Posted: 5 March 2008 9:53 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Today's Fiat Horror Story involves a Swift Bolero owned by John Yarwood, from Manchester.
John is better placed than most to comment on the juddering on the X250s than most, as he has spent 40 years in the motor trade and ended his working career as the boss at a Ford commercial dealers.
He bought his Swift Bolero (2.3 litre 6 speed) in June 2007 and was immediately concerned by the juddering in reverse gear when tackling any kind of gradient. Like the rest of us he thought it was a one-off which would be easily cured, and because he had a holiday booked, and Fiat soothed his furrowed brow with what we now know are meaningless platitudes, well off he went.
And like the rest of us when Fiat started issuing instructions about increasing the revs when releasing the clutch, instead of fixing the fault, John, who has forty years of experience of motor manufacturers, got suspcious.
He reckons the fault WILL cause premature failure of gearboxes and clutches, and he has never previously heard of a transmission system DESIGNED (as a 'characteristic') to do these things.


For all those like Rupert 123 who has advocated that we all simply 'reject' the vehicles do you not think that we haven't examined the possibility?
It isn't a straightforward procedure and most of us rejected the whole idea after looking carefully at it. Indeed there are a couple of forum users who have gone down this road and the advice they have given is 'don't'.


 
userAndyStothert
Posted: 6 March 2008 5:17 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Date: March 6.

Today's Fiat Victim of the Juddering is Garry Morris, from South Wales, where they have hills.
He bought his Fiat based 2.3 litre 6 speed Bessacarr E560 in August 2007, and noticed the juddering in reverse shortly afterwards.
He was given the usual advice by Fiat - 'You don't know how to drive. Increase the revs and it will be fine. There is no defect. Go away'.
The trouble was that it wasn't fine. Whilst reversing uphill onto a site pitch, accompanied by the usual shaking and juddering there was bang from the transmission and another Fiat gearbox had bit the dust.
Garry got it fixed by Ashmoors in Swansea who told him they had done 'at least twenty gearboxes' on these new Fiats, and that made up his mind to get rid.
Garry has now left the ranks of us motorcaravanners and reluctantly gone back to caravanning after not being able to find a motorhome which suited his needs but wasn't built on a Fiat or Peugeot.
This experience has cost him thousands of pounds.

THIS IS AN ENDEMIC DEFECT ON THE NEW FIAT AND PEUGEOT. It is wrecking gearboxes and clutches. Fiat are in denial and new vehicles are still being converted with this defect.
This defect only really shows up whilst reversing up steep hills, which for many may not arise very often. So if you own one go and test it on a steep hill (about 1:5) and if you are unhappy with the way your X250 Fiat or Peugeot judders when reversing up hills complain to Fiat. Insist on the fault being rectified, then if you want more information about further measures to protect your investment email me - andystothert@blueyonder.co.uk
 
usermichele
Posted: 6 March 2008 6:14 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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Location: Autotrail Chieftain G


feel so sorry for all the people caught up in this .
 
userBasil
Posted: 7 March 2008 10:01 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
200010010010025


I really believe you would all do well to fill in the complaint form on the VOSA website stating the potential dangers to pedestrians and other road users caused by the method that FIAT are proposing you use. Safety issues are their priority.


Bas

P.S. Puts you back up top as it isn't a sticky!! (Hmmmm wonder why?)
 
usermichele
Posted: 7 March 2008 4:30 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


5000500050010010010025
Location: Autotrail Chieftain G


STICKY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
userBasil
Posted: 7 March 2008 9:30 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
200010010010025


michele - 2008-03-07 4:30 PM

STICKY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Your point!
 
usermichele
Posted: 7 March 2008 11:52 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


5000500050010010010025
Location: Autotrail Chieftain G


My point is it should remain at the top of the page .
 
userAbb
Posted: 7 March 2008 8:12 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
2525
Location: W.Midland


Maybe If 20 or 30 X250 based MH owners get together at major events such as the NEC, Peterborough, Stratford, Excel with their MH parked at the front entrance with banners along the lines ' beware of inherent gearbox/clutch, water ingress problems on X250 before you buy'.
The motoring press would love it. Fiat might take notice then!!!

Just a thaught......
 
userBasil
Posted: 8 March 2008 9:57 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
200010010010025


Quite agree M.

Bas
 
userAndyStothert
Posted: 9 March 2008 6:50 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Today's victim of Fiat's Design Defect Department is Maureen Maubern, who last May bought an Ace Firenze with an X250 Fiat Ducato 2.3 6 speed base vehicle lurking underneath.
As they live in South Wales it didn't take them long to discover the terrible juddering in reverse up steep hills, and were so concerned about the juddering and the overheating clutch that they took it in to the local Fiat dealer who also seemed to think that there was something wrong with it. But, having no idea how to fix it, and as is standard with this defect, they contacted Fiat who sent an egineer out to drive the vehicle. Maureen states that he 'Revved the guts out of it, reversed it a couple of yards, then said "see it goes backwards, there's nothing wrong with it".
And that was it - a properly technical sort of examination, and another under-valued customer abused and fobbed off.
Maureen and hubby decided that they couldn't face the prospect using the Ace long-term and the motorhome dealers - Discover - were very helpful and part exchanged it for a Merecedes based Auto Trail Scout.
Maureen of course lost a great deal of money, but the dealers must be rubbing their mitts together if they can sell more motorhomes more often.
And what happened to Maureen's defective Ace Firenze? The one she didn't think was fit to be used?
In Maureen's own words 'Some other poor sod has bought it.' Has it been fixed?
In other words it went straight back into the chain.
Have you bought that motothome?

THESE X250 Fiats and Peugeots are eating clutches and gearboxes, whilst Fiat are involved in a dishonest misinformation campaign about this design defect. If you have one go and reverse it up a steep hill and see if you think this is an acceptable 'characteristic' (Fiat's description of the juddering and failed components) of the vehicle.
If you don't email me - andystothert@blueyonder.co.uk

Because this is fast becoming a full time job can you all refrain from seeking any kind of 'buying' advice. What can I say? If you have doubts - look for a motorhome with another base vehicle, or delay any purchase until this is resolved.
What you could do - everyone - is just spread the word to everyone you know. This fault affects them all to one degree or another, and it needs sorting out soon for the sake of the whole motorhoming scene.

I shall be asking all the motorhome manufacturers for a response as to what they are doing about it in the next few days and will let you know exactly what they have to say.
 
userTracker
Posted: 9 March 2008 7:15 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


I think that every one of us who either has or might have one of these ubiquitous base vehicles in the future owes Andy a great big debt of gratitude for all the research and chasing around that he is doing on our behalf.

I for one salute you Andy - well done and good hunting.
 
userClive
Posted: 9 March 2008 11:30 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


Stalwart

Posts: 3138
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Location: New Milton


I applaud Maureen Maubern second choice. (Same as us) Its just a pity it was not the first choice.
Keep up the good work Andy.
C.

P.S. Just a thought Andy, why not a special Fiat Reversing corner at "Meet the Team" at Peterborough?

Edited by Clive 2008-03-09 11:31 PM
 
userrossko
Posted: 10 March 2008 10:14 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Can we just add our thanks to Trackers comments as well please. How Andy is managing to remain sane in the midst of all this is a miracle. Will be adding our latest news (or non news) when I can pinch a few more minutes from work!!!
 
userrossko
Posted: 10 March 2008 1:03 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
New User

Posts: 64
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Lunch break now --
We took our Swift Bolero back to Fiat dealers last week for water ingress & juddering problem. Engine cover fitted & scuttle re sealed but advised no other covers were being provided. We said we knew others had had them fitted so told to take it up with fiat. Dealers only advised to fit engine cover. Technician tested reverse gear for the third tme & still came back & said no problem. "Keepthe revs up I can't fault it". Rang fiat customer services & were advised that a letter would be coming out (not sure if it was to all owners) to advise us that they were aware there was a concern from some owners that they thought they had a juddering problem & they were to take their vehicles to a fiat dealer & have a technician test it. If the technician says there is no problem that will be the end of it as far as fiat is concerned - so another dead end. We have just rung Paul Taviner at VOSA for a form (we waited to see what the outcome at the dealers was) & Paul says they have now decided that there is not a safety issue with reverse so he will not be sending any more forms out. He then suggested we might try going down the sale of faulty goods act at which point we switched off. We are going to Newark on Sunday & will be at Peterborough in April & quite happy to join any way of making our feelings felt.
 
userzulurita
Posted: 10 March 2008 2:38 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


Regular Visitor

Posts: 155
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Well I have heard from Vosa after returning my forms.

The judder problem they have decided does not come under the safety defect Code.

Part of Vosa reply:

"In the instance under review, the concern is clearly making itself known to you and as such, we are unable to ask te manufacturer to take action under the terms of the Code."
"However, Fiat are aware of customer complaints, and have issued a Service News Buletin advising that should juddering occur during take off with the engine speed below 1200rpm, it should not be considered as a fault. Even if the vehicle can take off and start without accelerating, it is always advisable to release the clutch gradually whilst maintaining the engine speed above 1300rpm.
If after following the above advice the concern remains apparent. I would suggest that in the first instance; you again approch your dealer, and or your legal adviser as appropriate"

So not a lot of help if dealers say they cannot do anything.

Edited by zulurita 2008-03-10 2:39 PM
 
userbrom
Posted: 10 March 2008 6:58 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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I have today tried a basic 'white van' Citroen Relay 100, a demonstrator kindly supplied by our very obliging local Citroen dealer. A salesman came with me, to check out whether the problem could be found. He said that he didn't know of it, but then, he hadn't tried such an extreme manoeuvre. Even near the Lakes, it isn't that easy to find a really steep hill, but I had found two, one of which must have been 1:5 or damn near. Previously, I have found that the Boxer 100 with a coachbuilt body reversed OK on a more reasonable hill - say 1:8, but that the 120 was dreadful.

This time, on a properly steep hill, the van did vibrate, quite a lot, though nothing like as badly as the 120 on the lesser hill. We both drove it, and tried different techniques. It has been suggested that you can let the clutch out slowly and only then take up the accelerator, but it really doesn't work, and the vibration becomes an unacceptable judder at that point - just before it stalls. If you think about it, the standard procedure for reversing any vehicle is to ride the clutch, but at low revs, and without putting pressure on the vehicle. You then retain control and can move backwards very slowly. Any road, that's what I have done over the last 38 years, and I have never replaced a clutch, even if I have had the vehicle 100,000 miles.

The only way to make the Sevel reverse satisfactorily up a steep hill is to get the revs up, and ride the clutch. When you reverse, (hopefully), you are watching the mirrors, not the rev.counter, but when the salesman was driving, I could see that he had it at around 1800 - 2000 revs. That smooths out any vibration, but to move slowly and under control, you really have to slip the clutch. It is cruel and unusual punishment, and the clutch cooks. We got the smell of burning cheese which tells you the clutch is getting really upset.

I have been in touch with Fiat, and they confirm their advice that you must rev to at least 1300 revs, and slip the clutch, and all will be well. However, I don't think they will be happy to reimburse you the cost of the clutch when it fails prematurely, as a result.

The Citroen chappy was quite upset by this, and says he will take it up with the head office technical people. I await results, but ain't holding my breath.

My suggestion would be that anyone looking at a Sevel motorhome, and especially any of the bigger ones where the problem is much worse, should ask their local Fiat/Pug/Citroen dealer, for a drive of the white van version, having first recce'd a suitable hill. Explain what you want, and in my experience, they are normally happy to oblige, far more so than some motorhome dealers who don't like test drives unless you are really going to sign up on your return. If you find the reverse hill-start performance unacceptable, then get the salesman to replicate it - he won't like it either - no-one with any mechanical sympathy would - and ask him to take the matter further up the chain. Any extra discomfort we can impose on these Head Offices must be worthwhile.

Incidentally, on the Fiat 'Professional' website, there is a telephone number which you can ring to try to arrange a test drive of a motorhome. It could be worth trying that, too, although I am still waiting for them to come back to me with a date...

 
userLordThornber
Posted: 10 March 2008 8:11 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


Stalwart

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Location: Blackburn Lancs. Bailey 740 CC award winner 2014!


My nephew is a Peugeot technician, mechanic to most of us, but what the heck. He visited us the other night, so I took the opportunity to grill him about the juddering issue.

He said he'd heard nothing whatsoever about the problem. Except to say that only last week a plumber had his (brand new Peugeot), van brought into the garage with a complete gearbox failure. My nephew actually spoke to the plumber who said the only description he could give as to what had happened was that the engine (gearbox?), just went "bang". Sorry if this is as much use as a chocolate fireguard but thought I'd whizz it in.

Naturally I asked him to keep me informed if he heard anything juddering related from the "inside"

Martyn
 
userAndyStothert
Posted: 10 March 2008 8:44 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Today's thought for day is for those who have ordered a motorhome on a new Fiat, have seen the forums, and have not yet taken possession of their lifestyle enhancing pride and joy.
I've had loads of emails from ordinary stupid folk like me who thought that Fiat would at least test their vehicles in all possible road conditions before unleashing it on the public. We can put up with minor teething troubles, but major engineering design faults are just not on y'r mind when you order a brand new vehicle. In fact the only advantage there is to buying a new vehicle is that warranty, and the peace of mind which shouid come with it.
Where was I?
Those people who have paid a deposit and now know they are buying something flawed?
Can anybody out there think of anything they can do to safeguard their position?
I have suggested to several that they get something in writing to the effect that the dealer will take the vehicle back without question if it judders, but in truth, as we all now know, they are all juddering. Fiat have started calling it a 'Normal Judder', which beggars belief.
But I haven't a clue what to say to them - I'm just a disgruntled customer who can't quite believe Fiat can get away with this.
Any ideas? Besides the obvious that is.
They are all watching this space.




 
userdiydoolittle
Posted: 10 March 2008 9:04 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Hi I think your ONLY way forward now is to go down the legal route. This is fraught with difficulties and is most definately not easy, as I have found out. Would prefer not to get into it here but if/when I get any type of result happy to go into it chapter and verse Firstly I recommend that you get a detailed engineers report to see whether you actually do have a case. I am not saying there isn't a case only that you will need something on which to base one ergo engineers report. Then once you have that take it from there.
I do think having a van which under the normal definitions of reverse it is (virtually) incapable of acheiving certainly asks the question whether it is indeed fit for purpose. Only other thing I can suggest is Trading Standards.
Or a concerted media campaign in the national press.
 
userMel B
Posted: 10 March 2008 9:30 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


500050002000100100100
Location: E Yorks, 2012 Autocruise Accent on Fiat 2.3 130bhp


Andy

Have you, or has anyone else with this problem, actually 'written' to MMM magazine to get their letter published? It's okay have a winge, moan, scream, or whatever you want to call it, on here (with which I totally sympathise), but surely getting a letter published in the magazine is the best course of action??? It would certainly alert a heck of a lot more people to the problem.
 
userMike H
Posted: 10 March 2008 10:42 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Evening all.
I have written to both Which Motorcaravan and the Camping and Caravanning Club, stating the fault that we are having and asking readers/members to get intouch with me. (phone number given). They haven't replied to me yet as to whether they will print or not, and it hasn't appeared yet. I not holding my breath.
Mike H.
 
usergraham
Posted: 11 March 2008 5:17 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
Regular Visitor

Posts: 159
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Location: Autocruise Starfire 2011


I would like to thank Andy for pursueing this because it must be causing untold grief. We own an 04 Boxer 2.2 Auto Sleeper and were considering getting one of the new ones as they do look good. Now I am not so sure. We have none of these problems with our current van so maybe we will keep it instead and save some money. We were watching Dominic Littlewoods programme the other afteroon on BBC2. He seems very happy to take on the big boys and with his automotive background might relish having a go at Fiat. Could be worth a go. Good luck with the campaign.
 
userAndyStothert
Posted: 11 March 2008 5:26 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Greetings from the bunker,

Dealing with the 'have I written to anyone rather than just whinged and moaned' well yes, I've written to quite a few different folk.
MMM are putting a letter in next month's mag, and the Caravan Club should be doing the same.
The Editor of Which Motorcaravan has declined to do so.
Yesterday I encouraged the whole group to write to every motorcaravan magazine with their tale of woe (and I have already) but you can only ask.
The biggest problem is that the kind of people who buy motorhomes are not y'r budding revolutionaries, and I think that the ones who have yet to be put fully through the Fiat Customer Care Mangle still believe that Fiat will do the decent thing.
Those who have been put through it are running out of the resolve to carry on fighting and several have part exchanged their vehicles, so in effect submitting to the corporate bullying.
I have asked Warners for some more positive support, such as putting a general 'summimg up' of what's happened to everybody as a 'sticky' on the forum, and perhaps writing a factual piece in one of the magazines about the issues involved for readers and consumers, but they have so far declined to assist.
I am still hopeful though that MMM will take up the cudgel on behalf of the motorcaravanning public now that we know this is an endemic and potentially disastrous (in financial terms) defect in ALL new Fiat and Peugot motorhomes.
 
userTracker
Posted: 11 March 2008 5:42 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


Not only a potential disaster for Fiat and Peugeot but also a potential disaster for many converters too - at no fault of their own.

Maybe the converters may be able to exert more pressure on Fiat than ever the consumers will and maybe the loss of one or two of the bigger converters to Ford or Renault might focus Fiat's attention.

Have any of you victims (other than Andy) had any joy with any action against the converters for supplying a vehicle 'unfit for purpose' - or are you contractually stuck with the dealer as the point of complaint and/or redress?

To simply trade a van in and take the hit is understandable but very expensive and whilst it may be what Fiat wants it is not justice.
 
userMel B
Posted: 11 March 2008 6:08 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


500050002000100100100
Location: E Yorks, 2012 Autocruise Accent on Fiat 2.3 130bhp


I am glad I have a ford (the outgoing one)! I am not being flippant and in some ways I wish I HAD one of the ruddy Fiats so that I could give you all my support - my goodness I know what I would like to do to them, bombarded them left, right and centre, up their exhaust and everywhere else I could think of!

It really does beggar belief that they think that this is 'acceptable' and a 'characteristic', it is clearly a defect, surely no one designs a vehicle that will actually damage itself! I certainly wouldn't touch one of these new vehicles anyway as I still think they are pug-ugly and I like a 'pretty' van ) .

If this goes on and the TV media will not get involved, then a mass demonstration is probably the only way that this will get on the TV and make others aware of the problem. We are probably only hearing of a fraction of the people who are having problems. There must be loads out there who are suffering in semi-silence, being fobbed off by the dealers, manufacturers and the like.

Does anyone have any contacts with local newspapers? If something can be published in one of those, it's not unheard of it to be picked up by some of the bigger publications who then run with it. Worth a try?

All the possible media outlets need to be used so ... is anyone any good at putting stuff on YouTube??? Maybe a video showing what it is like when the juddering etc actually happens when a vehicle is being reversed can be put on there and linked to various sites, this would give publicity to the problem, you never know it might just help and there is nothing to lose by doing it so long as it is done carefully and accurately then the maker can't be accused of being unfair to Fiat. So come one, any budding Michael Winner's out there!


 
userTracker
Posted: 11 March 2008 6:15 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


The Peterborough show might be a good place for a mass demonstration but for heaven's sake organise it discreetly and not in public on here so that they are not prepared for it!
 
userMel B
Posted: 11 March 2008 6:17 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


500050002000100100100
Location: E Yorks, 2012 Autocruise Accent on Fiat 2.3 130bhp


Just another thought ... a naughty one!

If you wanted to be cruel, you could of course visit a dealer or two and 'pretend' that you are interesting in purchasing a vehicle on a Fiat or Peugeot base, really string them along, taking loads of time and getting them really excited at the thought of a sale, wait until they are just about eating form your hand and drooling at the thought of all that lovely commission they'll earn, then walk away for a little while to 'think' about it. After 10 mintues or so, go back to them and watching their expression very closely, ask them about the 'juddergate' problem you've just remembered being told about ... see if they suddenly go pale and worried looking. If so, then they know about it ... you can then 'tease' them as much as you like from then on ... asking them to guarantee in writing that the new van you are just about to sign up for will definitely be okay ... they won't be able to of course so unfortunately you can't do the deal, well you wouldn't would you (unless you need your bumps felt!). If they get this happening enough times and spend loads of time with customers who don't go ahead with the purchase because of it, they might just start to do something about it themselves. Of course, this is all just hypothetical as I'm sure no one would be that cruel to a nice friendly sales chap/chapess!
 
usermichele
Posted: 11 March 2008 6:22 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


5000500050010010010025
Location: Autotrail Chieftain G


And of course there is always the poor unsuspecting public whom don't know their fate as yet .
 
userdiydoolittle
Posted: 11 March 2008 6:38 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Location: UK


Tracker - 2008-03-11 5:42 PM

Have any of you victims (other than Andy) had any joy with any action against the converters for supplying a vehicle 'unfit for purpose' - or are you contractually stuck with the dealer as the point of complaint and/or redress?



No and yes!!! No to converter and yes to stuck with dealer.
 
userTracker
Posted: 11 March 2008 8:52 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


AndyStothert - 2008-03-11 5:26 PM

MMM are putting a letter in next month's mag, and the Caravan Club should be doing the same.
The Editor of Which Motorcaravan has declined to do so.
I have asked Warners for some more positive support, such as putting a general 'summimg up' of what's happened to everybody as a 'sticky' on the forum, and perhaps writing a factual piece in one of the magazines about the issues involved for readers and consumers, but they have so far declined to assist.


It's always good to know who your friends are - and are not - and it speaks volumes about just how consumer orientated the leisure press really is.

Do these editors remember what a 'consumer' is I wonder?

You remember the 'consumer', surely?

As in the people the magazine is supposed to be informing, entertaining and educating?

Lest they forget - we are the poor sods that buy their magazines and thus pay their wages and they must see the likes of Andy and all the others as an inconsiderate selfish bunch if we expect them to take arms against the likes of Fiat.
 
userHuckleberry
Posted: 11 March 2008 9:12 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
New User

Posts: 24

Location: Essex. 2009 Rapido 965M


Would it not be possible for all testers to carry out an uphill reverse on their road test vehicles and report on it as part of the test?
In recent reports I have only noticed one report that mentioned reversing and that was on a Fifer van conversion - and it performed well. I can't remember which magazine it was.
It would of course be difficult for the editor of Which Motorcaravan to offer his support in view of the fact that his magazine gave the 2008 base vehicle to the Fiat. It makes a nonsense of his editorial statement (March 2008) of loyalty to the readers, aiming to provide the best possible buying advice and not being afraid of criticising winning vans. His closing statement concerning keeping in touch with change should have mentioned this website if he wanted accuarcy - but it didn't.
Huckleberry
 
userdavenewell@home
Posted: 11 March 2008 9:57 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


Stalwart

Posts: 3257
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Location: Shropshire. Motorhome= 1996 home converted Iveco


Those of you who are criticising the mags for not publishing details of this defect ought to bear in mind that what you read in this month's mag will have been written approximately two months ago. Last month I included a piece in my monthly column of a "fellow" magazine, it will appear in the May issue! These things take time.

As was the case with the water ingress issue it all takes time!

D.
 
userwebbocj
Posted: 11 March 2008 11:17 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
Visitor

Posts: 120
100
Location: South Yorkshire


Dave
Of coarse your right (creep), but my m/h-Knaus Van Ti, on Fiat !! was a "long term tester" probably with Practiclemotorhomes, as in their Nov.07 mag. the Executive Editor Dan Wright took it for a trip to the French aires without aword about it's tech. merits at all, so what did that prove for an intended purchaser. In the same edition another member of staff spent time in Kent and Essex before driving over to the show in Dusseldorf. Now the interesting point here was that he had a "sudden cutout" on the French autoroute and he asked readers to drop him a line if they had a similar experience. Thats a turn up. It had done 3000mls and only one tech. problem? what were they testing it for-the food/sun/aires nice freebies if you can get one. Must go other letters to write!!!!! Chris
 
userwebbocj
Posted: 12 March 2008 8:52 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
Visitor

Posts: 120
100
Location: South Yorkshire


Good morning
After a sleep(not helped by the wind & "gearbox") I realised I was naive. There must be a contract restricting adverse reporting to the public witout the permisson of the base/converter/dealer, who ever loaned it. So the results are really cosmetic, could be wrong! When if ever was there such a bombshell?
Chris
 
userTomo3090
Posted: 12 March 2008 10:04 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


Stalwart

Posts: 1201
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Location: Warrington, Centre of the known World!


I would think the problem for a mass demo is that not every van is doing the juddering thing. I have a 2007 Compass Avantgarde on a Peugot boxer and have had 8600 miles of trouble free motoring. No reversing judder, no cutting out, nothing. I have checked under the bonnet and there is a bit of evidence of water getting in there, but so what? The thing still runs ok and it's the engine! It is the hardest working bit in the van it gets a bit sweaty now and then!

My problem is that I am getting a new van in May, a FIAT! I am now praying that the same good fairy that sent me a "working Peugot" sends me a "working FIAT!
 
userrossko
Posted: 12 March 2008 10:35 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Posts: 64
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Given that our fiat dealer technician has now told us 3 times that there is nothing wrong with our gear box & fiats stance now is that if the technician says it is ok thats it as far as fiat are concerned - can anyone advise us where we should go to get a highly qualified engineers report from someone whose qualifications would stand up in court. Would RAc/AA be any good or should we have someone more technical & if so where would we find one?
Thanks to everone out ther who are offering support even though not directly involved.
Lots of letter writing to do tonight!!!
 
userJudgeMental
Posted: 12 March 2008 12:53 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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Posts: 11182
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You need a forensic engineer, qualified in the field of automotive engineering, Society of expert witnesses may be able to help.

Owners and potentially effected owners who are interested could club together a few £ and get an "opinion" and try to get it published in motoring/motorhome media. Or club together again with an action against one dealer or manufacturer which would set a “precedent” for others (if it went against supplier). I don’t think the manufacturer could ignore you then. And at least you should categorically know if there is an identifiable mechanical fault or not......

Boy, I’m glad I bought a Ford.
 
userAndyStothert
Posted: 12 March 2008 5:27 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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I was going to relate yet another tale of misery, frustration, and dishonesty from Fiat today but after ongoing discussions with the Editors of MMM, after looking at all the facts, they have decided to commission an in-depth and factual feature about the Juddering Defect, and Fiat's treatment of its customers as a result this design cock-up.
There is also a main channel TV consumer programme interested, so it looks at long last that the issue will be getting a much wider airing. This will help potential buyers have all the information about this base vehicle before making any buying decision, and offer current owners a glimpse of a solution with pressure of this kind being put on Fiat.
But until the fat lady sings..........
 
userMel B
Posted: 12 March 2008 7:58 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


500050002000100100100
Location: E Yorks, 2012 Autocruise Accent on Fiat 2.3 130bhp


AndyStothert - 2008-03-12 5:27 PM

But until the fat lady sings..........


Andy, if it will help, I'll be the fat lady! Doo-di-doo, tiddly-pom, sing a song ... tiddly-pom!
 
userAndyStothert
Posted: 12 March 2008 9:14 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
Permanent Fixture

Posts: 554
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I actually missed a trick there - it should have read 'When the Fiat Lady Sings'.


CAN ANYBODY WHO OWNS A FIAT OR PEUGEOT X250 BASED MOTORHOME TAKE IT TO THE NEAREST STEEP HILL (about 1 in 5) AND TRY REVERSING IT UP THE HILL.
YOU WILL BE HORRIFIED (especially if you have the 6 speed gearbox), but when you've calmed down email me and I'll send information to help you protect your investment and hopefully get this endemic defect resolved.

andystothert@blueyonder.co.uk
 
userzulurita
Posted: 12 March 2008 5:39 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


Regular Visitor

Posts: 155
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Looks like MMM are going in the right direction. March issue with Mike Jago's report was also good.
 
userfred grant
Posted: 12 March 2008 7:29 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


Stalwart

Posts: 899
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Location: penpillick


mmms bin goin up for 40 odd years me ansums, so whats changed??

the price of peanuts i suppose my biddies.

needleanfred
 
userJudgeMental
Posted: 12 March 2008 9:35 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


Stalwart

Posts: 11182
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Location: London. 2013 Possl 636 FR


Well thats something I guess. Andy, how may cases of known juddering in reverse are in contact with you? and how many actual gearbox failures do you know of?

Edited by JudgeMental 2008-03-12 9:36 PM
 
userClive
Posted: 12 March 2008 10:32 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


Stalwart

Posts: 3138
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Location: New Milton


I reckon when the views get to 10,000 it deserves a sticky!
 
userTracker
Posted: 13 March 2008 10:25 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


If the moderators can make their own electricity debate thread a sticky because it suits their need for info for a magazine article it speaks volumes about their disinterest in an issue that is just as important to us all and a darned sight more important to the victims of Sevel reversing disease.

Maybe we should all boycott any future threads that the moderators make sticky for their own ends and then maybe someone else will come to a sticky end!
 
userMel B
Posted: 13 March 2008 7:50 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


500050002000100100100
Location: E Yorks, 2012 Autocruise Accent on Fiat 2.3 130bhp


Clive - 2008-03-12 10:32 PM

I reckon when the views get to 10,000 it deserves a sticky!


The problem is, which one would they make into a sticky????? There are at least 3 threads on here all on the same subject, maybe if only one was kept going then then might make it into a sticky!!!

I suggest therefore that only THIS thread is posted on from now on, that way we can keep everything together and live in hope of a sticky!!!!!
 
userbob b
Posted: 13 March 2008 4:11 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
Stalwart

Posts: 1176
1000100252525
Location: Horsham West Sussex. 2003 Fiat Rapido 2.3 jtd 709F


Careful Rich !.......aren't you on "probation" ?
 
userTracker
Posted: 13 March 2008 4:14 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


bob b - 2008-03-13 4:11 PM

Careful Rich !.......aren't you on "probation" ?


Warners are quite free to post their own reply and reasons if they wish Bob!

In fact we would all be delighted to read that wee story I think!
 
userAndyStothert
Posted: 13 March 2008 5:22 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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As a response to JudgeMental's question of how many owners and how many gearboxes - from this one small sample of ownership relating to a fault which only arises when you take it somewhere fairly extreme we have 30 owners and out of them two gearbox failures.
We have three clutch failures (different vans from the gearboxes) and all except me have now traded them in for something without Fiat or Peugot writ on the front.
If only we could get everybody to risk ruining their pride and joy by finding nice narrow twisty 1 in 5 hill and reversing it up.
But they won't, not until they have to, and then the warranty may very well have expired when it all goes bang.........

Do it now, reverse your X250 (2007 onwards) Fiat Ducato up a steep hill. See how it judders John. Tell him Janet.
Then get off y'r backsides and complain to Fiat when you realise the legacy you're leaving the next generation of second hand buyers.
If anyone else wishes to take over this 'campaign' (somebody more resilient or organised) or if you're just fed up of that juddering Fiat and want to se a resolution to thsi just email me -
andystothert@blueyonder.co.uk
 
userTracker
Posted: 13 March 2008 5:30 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


That settles it - thanks for that info Andy - there is no way on this Earth that I will ever buy a used van with an X250 base vehicle as many of them will only be used because someone else has got brassed off with the problems and I don't want someone else's semi duff gearbox thanks!

Shame, because we will be in the market for a larger van by the end of this year or early next, and it now looks like it might either be a long search or a long wait!
 
userTracker
Posted: 13 March 2008 5:32 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


Sorry double posting!

Edited by Tracker 2008-03-13 5:32 PM
 
userstarvin marvin
Posted: 13 March 2008 8:03 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
Stalwart

Posts: 991
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I haven't read all the bits on this string or whatever its called, but am I alone in thinking that its about time a motoring journalist bought a pup?

I've read so much tosh about how this new model is so much improved on the previous, better seat heights, better this, that and the other. It happens all the time whether its Ford, Fiat or anything thing else. Go back to the launch of the old model and again it would be the same, a new brilliant vehicle that knocks the socks off the old one.

Fiat sold this model very much on its motorhome friendly platform and all the testers seem to have missed this problem. I've got the previous model which was then supposed to be the bees knees. I've just suffered the first alternator failure in my 40+ years driving (I know they were dynamos when I started) it managed to cook my battery by overcharging. 700 plus euros to fix in France but heh oh it was the bees knees only four years ago.

The model before mine, didn't that one have a self destruct gearbox (well 5th gear anyway) but I don't recall any motoring journo getting caught with that problem and somehow that never got the interest this has. Funny that isn't it.

For vehicle testers like Andy and his pals to miss something as fundemental as this, well if it that had happened to me when I was gainfully employed I would very quickly have been kicking stones down the gutter with my P45 in hand.

However I do hope this issue is sorted pretty quick for everyones benefit but do not forget what FIAT stands for "F@#*ing Italian Aways Trouble" and you won't go far wrong. I'm not convinced I did the right thing myself for having bought one, although I do love it when the silver bullet cruises at 130 kph. But thats an italian motor for you all flash and no substance, you can certainly so easily get suckered.

I've been thinking about a time share any advice Andy?

 
userstarvin marvin
Posted: 13 March 2008 8:04 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
Stalwart

Posts: 991
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I haven't read all the bits on this string or whatever its called, but am I alone in thinking that its about time a motoring journalist bought a pup?

I've read so much tosh about how this new model is so much improved on the previous, better seat heights, better this, that and the other. It happens all the time whether its Ford, Fiat or anything thing else. Go back to the launch of the old model and again it would be the same, a new brilliant vehicle that knocks the socks off the old one.

Fiat sold this model very much on its motorhome friendly platform and all the testers seem to have missed this problem. I've got the previous model which was then supposed to be the bees knees. I've just suffered the first alternator failure in my 40+ years driving (I know they were dynamos when I started) it managed to cook my battery by overcharging. 700 plus euros to fix in France but heh oh it was the bees knees only four years ago.

The model before mine, didn't that one have a self destruct gearbox (well 5th gear anyway) but I don't recall any motoring journo getting caught with that problem and somehow that never got the interest this has. Funny that isn't it.

For vehicle testers like Andy and his pals to miss something as fundemental as this, well if it that had happened to me when I was gainfully employed I would very quickly have been kicking stones down the gutter with my P45 in hand.

However I do hope this issue is sorted pretty quick for everyones benefit but do not forget what FIAT stands for "F@#*ing Italian Aways Trouble" and you won't go far wrong. I'm not convinced I did the right thing myself for having bought one, although I do love it when the silver bullet cruises at 130 kph. But thats an italian motor for you all flash and no substance, you can certainly so easily get suckered.

I've been thinking about a time share any advice Andy?

 
userTracker
Posted: 13 March 2008 8:10 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


Tony,

That's a bit harsh on Andy.

How many of us reverse a vehicle up a steep hill on a test drive and at the time of his purchase this was an unknown issue.

I think Andy deserves support and gratitude for his perseverance with this because there is little doubt that without his 'higher than Joe Public' profile he is more likely to get the ear of those who make decisions than you or I ever will.

Give the guy a break!
 
userstarvin marvin
Posted: 13 March 2008 10:11 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Rich,

You help to make my point, I don't think I'm being harsh. Vehicle testers have a responsibility, none of us asked Andy to do the job it was his wish. As you point out he perhaps has some clout to get something changed, we'll see. If this was me or you I doubt very much if the journo's would be banging the drum so loud. As I said I hope its sorted quickly for everybody benefit.

Somebody, loads of somebodies tested this super, built for motorhome conversion model and missed this issue. Some testers have missed more obvious faults, but Andy motorhomes in the hills he often talks of testing a vehicle on steep hills, but it appears he never thought to assume a situation where he may have to reverse up a steep hill, well there you go, another costly lesson learned.

 
userRayjsj
Posted: 13 March 2008 11:17 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


Stalwart

Posts: 2340
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Location: Way out West (Wales) Autotrail Savannah


If you read the mags the X/250's virtues are STILL being 'Talked Up'.At the NEC Fiat had their own stand, ALL problems under control they assured me. I didn't belive them ! But it's quite hard to find a converter that doesn't use them.. why ?? (' cause they are cheap) .
I am looking for a new van, fancy a Devon Limousin, on a Renault chassis. My wife fancies the Murvi Piccolo BUT it's on a Fiat !!! No thank you ! how many Fiat vans do you see being used by high mileage delivery drivers ?? or even by the local jobbing builder ?? They know that Fiats are cheap for a good reason..... and they don't buy them. Renaults are not perfect, but you do see a lot of them on the road, being used Hard.
Thanks for the valuable information Andy, and i appreciate that it was YOUR money that you spent on your flawed new van. Hope it works out for you.
 
userGregory
Posted: 13 March 2008 11:12 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
New User

Posts: 17

Location: West Lothian


We've been thinking about a replacement for the van we've owned for 14 years but not being a great fan of the Sevel range found the choice a bit limiting, so I was trying to be a bit more open minded as just about everything is built on them.

Like others I've followed this unfortunate situation on these threads as I'm sure many who work in the magazines, dealers and converters have too.

I've spoken directly, by phone, and more recently communicated by email to several dealers and converters, asking for comments regarding this major fault and just as many of of you have found, it's a wry smile here or a surprised "oh?" there or a begrudged acknowledgement, sometimes no reply. I've also emailed Fiat expressing my concerns as a potential customer and asked for their comments (no reply as yet).

This whole episode has soured my opinion of the motor-caravan industry in general. They do themselves no favours with their tight lipped response to this sorry saga, surely they have a moral obligation to use their collective power, and force the hand of the manufacturer who are failing to even recognise that something is very wrong with their product. What happened to honesty and integrity?

Maybe they should remember it's we the end users who provide their bread and butter. They probably think if they bury their heads in the sand it'll go away and we'll just keep buying - what if we all decide just to hang on to our vans or put off buying that first van for another year or two? Don't think they'd like that at all.

I take my hat off to you Andy, many a person would have returned their van to the converter and let them get on with it. Stick with it, there is strength in numbers and it's good to know the qualities I mentioned lacking in some, are still there in bucket-loads in others.

Cheers,

Greg.
 
userTomo3090
Posted: 14 March 2008 11:23 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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Posts: 1201
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Location: Warrington, Centre of the known World!


I've just spoken to 3 large main motorhome dealers across the country who advertise in MMM magazine. 2 have never heard of any problems with clutches/gearboxes. They had all heard of "something to do with water dripping into the engine compartment, but that's all sorted". The third one had heard of this "urban myth" about the gearboxes not going into reverse, but had no evidence whatsoever of a "mainstream fault requiring a vehicle re-call"

So there you have it. Problem solved, it's all a jolly jape by some joker out there. Some people have too much time on their hands!
 
userAndyStothert
Posted: 14 March 2008 6:25 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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I take offence at being called a motoring journo?
I'm scenery snapper by trade, and I'm certainly not organised enough to be a journalist.

Yes, I do test the odd motorhome for MMM, but its not my line of work, and it ain't that often I get to do it as the mag generally receives too many letters of complaint to the effect that I'm being too harsh on them.
A few years ago I tested the new Romahome and discovered that it wouldn't go up Hardknott Pass as the front wheels came off the road. I got a lot of stick from the readers for even trying to drive it in such places.

Strangely next month's MMM has one of mine in, and as it's a new model, and I've learnt some lessons from the Ducato Debacle, I drove it a lot further and a lot more thoroughly than I have before.
And, in some magazines (NOT MMM) the opinion of the editor overrides that of the tester, so you never know whether what you read is what was written.

So there we are - I'm not a motoring journalist. I find taking photos of mountains stressful enough.

The issue here though isn't about whether I got what I deserved (which I probably did) but that this whole sitaution is resolved. And if the chap who was laughing at my situation had been following this he would have known that I could easily have cut and run with the offer of my money back, but that I'm just too old and bloody minded to do it.
If this defect isn't sorted out soon the second hand market in a couple of years time is going to be chaos, with a huge number of dodgy vehicles for sale.
If owners don't spot this fault and tell Fiat they are just going to keep on selling them and an awful lot of owners a bit further down the time line are going to be left high and dry with duff vehicles.

SO if you haven't seen this forum before and haven't been ranted at to go and reverse your new Fiat/Peugot up a steep hill well go and do it. If it judders complain to Fiat or Peugeot, and don't be fobbed off.

If you have a judderer and want want more info email me
andystothert@blueyonder.co.uk

Edited by AndyStothert 2008-03-14 6:31 PM
 
userfred grant
Posted: 14 March 2008 7:38 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


Stalwart

Posts: 899
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Location: penpillick


sounds to i me ansums as if sraevinmarvin as such a large chip on is shoulder that freds thinking of removin it to go with is slab of fish for tonites supper. how about it starvin, wanna lose a few pounds my biddy?

fryintonitefred

 
usercolin
Posted: 14 March 2008 8:00 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


Stalwart

Posts: 5592
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Location: Bedfordshire, Globecar 636SB


It seems to me Fiat et. al. have realy shot themselves in the foot over this one. In years gone past they would produce vehicles with faults and keep it quite, pretending there's nothing wrong, now we have the internet, people all over the country know about it now, and in dening it they are getting a bad reputation, but worse for them could be to come, if they say there's no fault, then even if they fix it, how can they say they have fixed a fault that is not there?
 
userRoyH
Posted: 14 March 2008 8:16 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
Regular Visitor

Posts: 286
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Location: West Berkshire


Hi Andy, Well said, I support you even though I am ex MH and now caravan.

Only a shot in the dark but do you think the Caravan Channel (also discusses Motothomes) might be interested?

http://caravanchannel.tv/ and on Sky channel 167 Mon, Wed, Fri 7.00pm
 
userTomo3090
Posted: 14 March 2008 8:29 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


Stalwart

Posts: 1201
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Location: Warrington, Centre of the known World!


Tried to ring another Sevel based dealer at 16.00 this afternoon. Their sales manager is getting back to me about the problem just as soon as he has dealt with a customer. That must be one hell of a deal he is negotiating! I am going to visit the dealer where we are getting ours from tomorrow to have a "face to face" chat. I'll be in touch.
 
userTomo3090
Posted: 15 March 2008 4:30 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


Stalwart

Posts: 1201
1000100100
Location: Warrington, Centre of the known World!


Been to my dealer today, who reassured me that FIAT have made some changes to the latest 2008 vans gearboxes. Although he wasn't sure what! The problem it seems was on some early models and as he says these have been ironed out. They had one van returned under warranty because of the gearbox/clutch failing after 500 miles, (A Frankia), in late 2007, this had the gearbox replaced and has not had any problems since.

I feel much easier about getting my van now. I know some people will question his answers, (and my accepting them!), but they have been reliable to us with our existing van and he hasn't given me any reason to start mistrusting him now. There may be trouble ahead, as the song goes, but the van will have a 3 year warranty so any potential faults, if there are going to be any, will surely show up by then.
 
userAndyStothert
Posted: 15 March 2008 5:32 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Re the question of whether Fiat have made any changes to the models now being sold the answer is 'very unlikely'.
The man in charge of Fiat chassis supply to the motorhome market stated categorically at the NEC in February that no changes have been made to eliminate the juddering and that he would be pursuing the mattter with some vigour. He also said that a solution was never going to be implemented quickly.
But he isn't PR or Customer Relations so it makes absolutely no difference to us Fiat owners (and customers) whatever he says. And he knows it, and so do Fiat.
Of course Fiat Customer Care and Fiat PR obviously don't acknowledge that a defect exists only that the juddering is a 'characteristic'. But today we have learnt that Fiat have once more moved the goalposts as Mike Hoodless, a severe sufferer of the judders, received a letter from Fiat which states, after 'testing' his van, that Fiat cannot find any manufacturing defect, and that using higher engine speeds wil help reduce the juddering.
Strangely it does not address our concern that the juddering is a design defect (and not a manufacturing one) and they are now openly admitting that the juddering cannot be eliminated by using higher engine speeds when releasing the clutch. So it still isn't a fault in their technical specification if it chews the contents of the gearbox on a steep hill in reverse.

In view of the fact that MMM are to publish a feature about this matter Fiat are to make a definitive and full statement next week, which may or may not be the truth.
As for believing what a dealer tells you about reported faults which may prejudice a sale? An interesting concept. And don't believe that 3 year warranty covers stuff like clutches either, becausre it doesn't and the clutch is one of the components most likely to fail as a result of the juddering.

I apologise if all this is getting a little boring and repetetive (you should try typing it every night and spitting feathers every time you do it) but can all of you who own one of these latest model Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen models go and reverse it up a steep hill. The 5 speed models will need a really steep hill to get the full flavour of what Fiat now believe to be excellence in engineering, whilst lucky 6 speed owners can get a taste of this modern engineering 'characteristic' on much less severe gradients.

If you aren't happy with the resulting judder complain to the manufacturer, and don't be fobbed off with it the 'don't worry, used higher revs' fob off. Make an official complaint.
Then email me and I'll send you information about what to do next to protect yourself and hopefully, if we get a resolution to this, the folk who buy these things second-hand in the future.

andystothert@blueyonder.co.uk
 
userparkmoy
Posted: 16 March 2008 8:16 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
Contributor

Posts: 332
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Location: 2001 Compass Navigator 360e on a VW 2.5 TDi


I would like to thank Andy for his efforts. I intended to change my MH at the end of the season but have now changed my mind because of the reversing problem. I'm revamping my van, getting a few additions, and will now keep it for a few years more at least. Maybe by then there will be a choice of nearly new fault free vehicles around.

It's saved me cash as well!
 
userBasil
Posted: 16 March 2008 10:43 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
200010010010025


AndyStothert - 2008-03-15 5:32 PM

Then email me and I'll send you information about what to do next to protect yourself and hopefully, if we get a resolution to this, the folk who buy these things second-hand in the future.

andystothert@blueyonder.co.uk


Anyone buying one of these new, or owning one for that matter, should really think about this last statement from Andy.
Were we in the market for a new van, currently we are happy with what we have but if the Emmision thing becomes a problem we may have to rethink, I for one will not touch one of these second hand with a barge pole and I have always been enthusiastic about Peugeot chassis. So if there are many like us then the resale value for these is bound to drop like a stone, or so they will tell you at trade in time.

Bas

Edited by Basil 2008-03-16 10:45 AM
 
userAndyStothert
Posted: 16 March 2008 8:01 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Posts: 554
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It's now nearly four weeks since Fiat conducted the latest 'road test' on our juddering camper and despite numerous calls and emails to Justin Westnedge (Fiat Senior Customer Relations Excecutive) starting from the day after our van was 'tested', I haven't had anything in writing to state what conclusions they have come to.
I've told him I don't want to know anything verbally but to just write me a letter stating whether Fiat consider my van to be defective or not. Then I can start planning what to do next in this sorry saga which started in May last year.
But Fiat are unwilling to commit themselves in writing to anything.

On my last call I asked him about personal integrity, and about it not being something you can leave at the door when you enter your workplace, but he couldn't quite grasp what I was talking about.
And that goes for the dealers who are telling porkies too.

And now the rant-
If you have a latest model Fiat or Peugoet based motorcaravan and haven't yet reversed it up a steep hill (1 in 5) to experience the horrible juddering, well I'm not going to stop repeating this until you do so.
Or Fiat come up with a fix - which isn't looking likely as it seems it is such a fundamental problem that they would have shut us all up by now and done it if it was a simpe matter.
IF IT JUDDERS email me - andystothert@blueyonder.co.uk
 
userAndy T
Posted: 17 March 2008 1:47 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
252525
Location: Chirk, Clwyd, Mooveo 608, 2007. Ducato 100.


My X250 now tested twice by local Fiat dealer, first by technician who made the clutch smoke trying to compensate for the judder and today by their service manager who tried to reverse, found the judder straight away, said "Oh, yes" very quickly, engaged first gear and drove back to the garage. Not a very steep hill either, housing estate, 1 in 10 say?
Now awaiting Fiat's comments.
 
userMike H
Posted: 17 March 2008 3:24 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
Visitor

Posts: 92
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Location: Sandy.Beds.08 Starspirit


Fiat say, they will not accept an Independant Engineers' report, But I have booked the van in on Wednesday, 19th, for a road test and report regarding the severe juddering when reversing. With an Independant Engineer. I can't wait to see what someone not connected to Fiat has to say.
I am also awaiting a reply from Fiat, with details of where and what type of hill the Fiat Engineer, tested my van on, they only said he did a full inspection, and could not find a manufacturing defect and advised that no further action is to be taken. Recommending that the revs be raised to 1300 rpm when reversing and pulling away.
Will keep you updated when I get any more news or result of inspection.
Mike H.
 
userRoyH
Posted: 17 March 2008 7:49 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
Regular Visitor

Posts: 286
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Location: West Berkshire


Moved to the top
 
userjoiner
Posted: 17 March 2008 8:27 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
New User

Posts: 5



Hi folks, I have arrived here after seeing mention of the site on the FIAT Forum ( well worth a look ).
I am self employed joiner and as such I bought a new LWB Maxi van in late 07. The van has all the problems as suffered by you motorhome owners, so you are not alone.
If you want to find vibrations then you should try reversing a trailer!!!
I have tried to gain some action from the dealer, but all to no avail.
After many phone calls to "Fiat Punter Dont`t Care" department I am still waiting for a call back from Sue.
This tosh about using 1300 revs is all very good if you are wanting to take off from the traffic lights but absolutely useless at all other times. Do Fiat have shares in the clutch companies. ( guess who has to pay for burnt out clutches?? )
If there is anybody out there with a magic idea then for god sake please let us know.
If it`s any consolation have a look at the Transit forum, and see what those lads are afflicted with as well.
 
userRoyH
Posted: 17 March 2008 8:35 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
Regular Visitor

Posts: 286
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Location: West Berkshire


Hi Joiner,

Can you post the websites of the Fiat and Transit forums please.

RoyH
Support Andy Stothert.
 
userjoiner
Posted: 17 March 2008 8:48 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
New User

Posts: 5



I am note that computer literate ,but if you just type in FIAT forum, or Transit etc to any search engine then you will get to the site.
 
userRoyH
Posted: 17 March 2008 9:19 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
Regular Visitor

Posts: 286
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Location: West Berkshire


OK Joiner Thanks
 
userrossko
Posted: 18 March 2008 4:55 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
New User

Posts: 64
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Hi Mike H
How did you classify an independant engineer & where did you did you find him. We obviously need them to be able to override the technicians opinions at the fiat dealers
 
userAndyStothert
Posted: 18 March 2008 6:00 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Perhaps everyone should also taken a look at the 'Mercedes Engine' thread for another tale of woe.
 
userAndyStothert
Posted: 18 March 2008 6:01 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Perhaps everyone should also taken a look at the 'Mercedes Engine' thread for another tale of Fiat reversing woe.
 
userAndyStothert
Posted: 18 March 2008 6:01 PM
Subject: Re Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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It's on page 2 currently.

Edited by AndyStothert 2008-03-18 6:02 PM
 
userRoyH
Posted: 18 March 2008 8:00 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
Regular Visitor

Posts: 286
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Location: West Berkshire


Here you are Andy. I've copied and pasted it to here for everyone to see without having to find the Mercedes thread:-



New User

Posts: 16

Location: South Wales OK here goes

We are both retired OAP and have been caravaners for 36 years and in Oct 07 decided to sell the caravan and buy a motor home we bought the new Fiat multijet 130 an Ace Firenze. Our outing to Paington November 2nd to 10th was quite an eye opener we went to visit some friends who live on a hill we passed the space outside their house so tried to reverse back it just would'nt move it was being reved right up and foot off the clutch but no movement only the clutch burning we had to go around the one way system and drive into the space. This would be a problem to us as we live in the South Wales vallies on a hill.

We also had a heavy thud when we started it up so when we got back we complained to Discover they made arrangements for it to go to the Fiat garage in Chepstow they said the engine mounting was out of line they ordered a new mounting and the Fiat had to go back in the following week to have this fitted and also the water ingress to be sorted and the steering to be greased.

When we went to pick it up we asked the mechanic to test it on a hill with us which he did it juddered and his words were "It's as good as your going t get"

We took it from the garage in Chepstow straight to Discover where the manager went out to test it and failed to reverse it he said leave it with me he got swift to test it and they also failed they agreed there was a fault on it and seemed to be on our side. In Jan 08 an engineer from Fiat tested it he failed twice and ther third time reved it 3500 revs and juddered back a few yards and said how far do you want to reverse so there was no case to answer.

In the mean time a second hand Auto Trail on a Mercedes chassis had come in it was a 2006 3100 miles on the clock and in excellent condition so we decided to change as due to my husbands ill health we could'nt take the stress of it all. Discover changed their attitude and we didn't get our money back and had to pay £4750.00 to change.

It was with Discover longer than with us and Discover have left a nasty taste in out mouths


-----
M Davies

http://madasa-soles.blogspot.com/
 
userJayKay
Posted: 18 March 2008 10:33 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


Visitor

Posts: 147
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Location: UK & Spain


Bump
 
userBasil
Posted: 19 March 2008 3:36 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
200010010010025


Wow that cost them a lot of cash then Bob.

Bas
 
userPeterC
Posted: 19 March 2008 7:25 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 

Location: Swift Bolero 680FB 2008 Essex


bump
 
userPeterC
Posted: 19 March 2008 7:25 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 

Location: Swift Bolero 680FB 2008 Essex


bump
 
userAndyStothert
Posted: 19 March 2008 9:04 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Tea? I need scotch.

Tonight's effort to try and persuade you all to go and test your 2007 onwards Ducato or Boxer on steep hill in the backwards direction involves the response from Peugeot and Fiat when I contacted them and asked for an official response to the suspicion that it is a basic defcet which is causing the juddering and in certain circumstances components such as gearboxes and clutches to fail.

Fiat, who aren't admitting it's Easter this weekend haven't responded. No change there then.
Peugeot on the other hand have been most enlightening. Well entertaining would be more accurate.
Peugeot initially told me that they had heard Fiat were having some problems in this respect, but that Peugoet use different engines and gearboxes, so no, the haven't had any reported problems whatsoever.
So, being a forgiving sort I asked them for another version of an official response for publication, but no, they were sure that they had it right, and that there were no shared components.
Once more I pointed out that the only difference was the mid range engine, and that all the gearboxes are shared and to stop treating everybody like eejits.
The third attempt was more considered and they have now decided that yes, alright, it is the same vehicle, but they are still sure that there have been no owners reporting any juddering whilst reversing up hills.

So if you have Peugeot or Fiat (2007 on) go and reverse it up a steep hill, and feel the almighty tremble.
And complain to Peugeot, or Fiat. Not that they are yet listening.
We need twenty more unhappy owners to get on TV apparently.

And does anybody use Motorhomefacts forum, as apparently they don't understand what this is all about, and still can't grasp that Fiat are capable of deliberately concealing a basic design defect.

Enough rambling - to the Bottle.............
 
usermichele
Posted: 19 March 2008 10:45 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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userbognormike
Posted: 20 March 2008 9:15 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
25


AndyStothert - 2008-03-19 9:04 PM


And does anybody use Motorhomefacts forum, as apparently they don't understand what this is all about, and still can't grasp that Fiat are capable of deliberately concealing a basic design defect.

Enough rambling - to the Bottle.............



Hope it's a good malt, Andy, sounds like you need it.

It has been discussed on MHF, but it hasn't taken off like it has on here; the "scuttlegate" problem was probably the most posted on thread in recent months and at least Fiat have acknowledged there is a problem there, (helped by persistent plugging away by the MHF members and others affected) and have been rectifying it.
There are several threads in the "base chassis" forum here
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/forum-19.html

I'm not trying to "plug" MHF, just pointing out the link. I hope the problem is sorted soon, that Fiat (and peugeot / Citroen presumably) get their fingers out & acknowledge it, and that Warners acknowledge that the people who post on here (and elsewhere!) are also their customers, not just advertsing fodder.
What happened to the old independent principles of MMM?
 
userSmart Bomb
Posted: 20 March 2008 9:51 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Perhaps this is a daft suggestion, but just as a control experiment, maybe some non-Sevel base vehicle owners should try reversing their motorhomes up a steep hill and see what happens?

Just a thought

Dave

Edited by Smart Bomb 2008-03-20 9:52 AM
 
userMike H
Posted: 20 March 2008 10:06 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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I had my Independant Inspection yesterday. Awaiting written report, but was informed, that in his opinion, the Clutch pressure plate is too small and not strong enough, for the weight of the vehicle and that the engine mountings were too soft. Will publish report when I receive it.
Mike H.
 
usercolin
Posted: 29 March 2008 11:48 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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Mike H - 2008-03-20 10:06 AM

I had my Independant Inspection yesterday. Awaiting written report, but was informed, that in his opinion, the Clutch pressure plate is too small and not strong enough, for the weight of the vehicle and that the engine mountings were too soft. Will publish report when I receive it.
Mike H.

There's the independant report, but if you read earlier post you would know that Fiat etc. are refusing to accept independant reports, also at whatvan Fiat have accepted there is a problem,but, blame it on 'overloaded' vans
p.s. does anyone realy believe Fiat etc. will admit to this one unless there nose is rubbed in it, it would potentialy cost them a fortune, I can still remember the problems with the earlier model where water was washing throu the battery, they blamed it on motorhomes not being driven enough, and of cause there's the famous case of ford prefering to pay out for people dying because it was cheaper than redesigning pinto

Edited by colin 2008-03-29 11:55 PM
 
userthamesist
Posted: 21 March 2008 4:29 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Hi All
Having said the problem had disappeared two weeks ago (Boxer 2.2, 100bhp), it's back and meaning it! I must have been giving it more revs which, admittedly makes a big difference but I tried this morning and it juddered until I put my foot down. I will be onto Peugeot next week so for no reports, read one!
Have a good Easter
Best Wishes

Alan Seldon
 
userargyler
Posted: 19 March 2008 10:52 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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Having spent New Year on Islay in our non juddering Peugeot Boxer (2003), I can recommend a number of good malts but they are best consumed in Duffie's Bar in Bowmore.
Mind you - I was a bit juddery going backwards up the hill on New Year's Day.
Awra best from Bute - Argyler
 
userargyler
Posted: 19 March 2008 10:52 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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Having spent New Year on Islay in our non juddering Peugeot Boxer (2003), I can recommend a number of good malts but they are best consumed in Duffie's Bar in Bowmore.
Mind you - I was a bit juddery going backwards up the hill on New Year's Day.
Awra best from Bute - Argyler
 
userGregory
Posted: 20 March 2008 12:20 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Location: West Lothian


Andy I'm fairly new to O&A and MF forums and visit both regularly and from what I see and read this Sevel issue is being well watched by plenty folk over on MF.

I wouldn't say it's not understood on MF as the juddering or potentially self destructing transmission "characteristic" is discussed there too but personally I don't detect any great enthusiasm over there for addressing it the way it is here.

As a non Sevel owner and new van hunter, I have posted there and referred to your O&A threads as have others who regularly post there but as I said.......

Why not post over there and ask some fellow sufferers to join you in your quest for justice ?



Cheers,

Greg.
 
userUsinmyknaus
Posted: 20 March 2008 10:09 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Dave

My 3.5 tonne Renault Master equipped with the Quickshiftsix auto box reverses up my 1 in 8 driveway like a home-sick angel and smooth as silk in the process. Am I glad I opted for tried and tested over ultra-new and cutting edge when I chose the base vehicle!

Bob
 
userGregory
Posted: 20 March 2008 10:32 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Are we not going off the topic here by discussing other vehicle types?

Cheers,

Greg.
 
userUsinmyknaus
Posted: 20 March 2008 10:39 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Fair enough, Greg. Sorry, just answered Dave's question.

Bob
 
userwebbocj
Posted: 20 March 2008 11:06 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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have been following the reversing problem with great interest-I have a 2007 FIAT, but can someone please clarrify. Sevel make the cab shell, and Fiat/Citroen/ Peugeot put their own design engine in?, if that is right, then surely the judder should not be common to all three as perhaps suggested, have I misunderstood something. I know my Fiat judders without the 1:5 test!! and THAT'S what upsets me most, both mentally and finacially.
Chris

 
userdikyenfo
Posted: 20 March 2008 10:50 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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Can't believe that this is still going on when I originally replied that the old Tranny was famous for this and the problem was to put the 8-spring clutch in and throw away all other versions and if necessary change the engine mounts altho. I did cure one by mounting an hydraulic ram [2-way] on to the lifting eye and that worked a treat but Ford would not do many of these under warranty as they never admitted to the problem. My old version bought just before the new one killed them off with a 2300 engine works fine and I have reversed up steep fields on the vendee farm sites with aplomb. Caveat emptor! - or suck it and see - sh'eel be reeat maaty as we say round here.
 
userdikyenfo
Posted: 20 March 2008 11:40 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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The bigger the original engine the bigger the bits around it to cope with the increased horse power and the Iveco for example with the smaller engines did have an adequate clutch albeit it a cable one but when this type is used to its limit or beyond as with Motorhomes then all the above mentioned problems ad. infinitum show up. But with the 2800 engine and 6-speed box the clutch was 40% bigger and the engine mounts were different also. Vehicle suppliers always make to a price for average loads and duty but any motorhome usually exceeds this parameter by a mile and the only way is to upgrade the existing clutch and mounts yourself and feel smug afterwards as you reverse uphill smoothly and feel everyone elses hate as you know they can't.
 
userShaun
Posted: 20 March 2008 12:26 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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I'm not sure that principle applies to a panel van conversion. Fiat quote maximum permissable weights, which apply whether the van is used in the more traditional vein, with the load area stuffed with goods, or as a motorhome with much of the permissable weight being the fixures and fittings. If there's reverse juddering when the Ducato is a panel van motorhome, then surely it should also judder if its a bog-standard, but laden panel van.

Shaun
 
userMike Chapman
Posted: 20 March 2008 1:20 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Shaun - 2008-03-20 12:26 PM

If there's reverse juddering when the Ducato is a panel van motorhome, then surely it should also judder if its a bog-standard, but laden panel van.

Shaun


Correct Shaun and that is exactly what I have experienced.

Hello Andy,

As promised I am posting the findings as described to you.

First, I have no axe to grind as I do not have a Ducato but am interested as a possible future purchaser, depending on how Fiat resolve the problem. Neither am I smug about not having purchased a Ducato/Peugeot/Citroen having been on the receiveing end of this type of issue three times in the past with VW.

We hired a 2007 Fiat Ducato MWB 120 Multijet with the 6 speed manual gearbox to move some building materials and tried the reversing test laden and unladen on the flat, gentle slope and attempted a reverse, laden, up a narrow lane about 200 yds and about 1 in 5 over the first quarter.

On the flat laden or unladen no problems except for a slight vibration. On a gentle slope laden there was a pronounced judder on take up but once the clutch was fully out all seemed OK. On the steep Lane and heavily laden we were both really surprised at the outcome. It juddered badly and continually even using higher revs and we had to resort to slipping the clutch and in the end we gave up trying just in case we wrecked the clutch or gearbox. This is a slope that we have reversed a 5 year old RWD Transit up many times without any problem.

The conclusion was that it felt more like severe axle tramp than a problem with gear ratios.

Having since spoken to Dealers, Coachbuilders, Hire Fleet Managers and both Fiat and Peugeot Dealer Service staff I have no doubt that this IS a known problem with these vehicles.

I can only support your stand and repeat your advice to owners of these vehicles to try reversing up a steep slope and then if there is a problem take this to a Fiat dealer and make sure Fiat are aware of the problem.

I really hope for all owners, dealers and coachbuilders that Fiat get this resolved not just for new model vehicles but also a resolution for those with the current models.

Just another point that someone may be able to comment on. I have noticed that several modern Euro 4 compliant diesels cars and vans seem to be much more sluggish on take off. This was most noticeable on the Peugeot HDI in a 307. Could this be part of the problem not just with Sevel based vans but also Ford and Renault.

Regards,

Mike.
 
userRayjsj
Posted: 20 March 2008 5:00 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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Bump to the top ! (who needs a sticky anyway !!)
 
userAndyStothert
Posted: 20 March 2008 5:57 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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I know I'm going to get mauled here, but in response to all talk of withdrawing subscriptions from MMM, accusations that the editor isn't doing enough to represent the interests of the customers (etc etc) and a feeling that the organisers of the forum should do more, as I have a foot in all camps can I just point out the following:

Firstly that I and all the others who have bought these Designer Defective Ducatos are grateful for the support that the forum users have given us in getting this matter noticed.
Secondly that this is the biggest and most visited UK motorhome related forum on the web, so without Warners offering this service the opportunity to get this matter so well recognised would have been much less easily accomplished. So the matter of whether or why this matter is or isn't given a 'sticky' status (which obviosuly we judderers would like) is a lot less important than the opportunity the forum has provided, and still is.
Thirdly, with regard to MMM, again, this is by far the biggest circulation UK motorhome magazine, and the editors have always promised support for this battle with Fiat if and when the facts could be established. Now that they have (through this forum to large extent), MMM have said they will be publishing a feature about this which will inform more motorcaravanners of this defect than any other means available. Even the TV can't hit the target like the motorcaravanning press can.
So although the format of the forum isn't quite best-suited to consumer issue related campaigns it hasn't done that bad so far.

Oh and I nearly forgot....
If you're thinking of buying a new motorhome read the contents of the three threads carefully before making a decision about the base vehicle of your choice, and if you own a 2007 onward Ducato or Boxer based motorhome go and reverse it up as steep hill now. Or soon. This may prevent you getting a nasty surprise when you are forced to.
If it judders in reverse up steep hills and you don't consider this to be a good long term engineering characteristic email me
andystothert@blueyonder.co.uk

Edited by AndyStothert 2008-03-20 6:03 PM
 
userfred grant
Posted: 20 March 2008 7:52 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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an we don wan the bleddy lanes blocked in cornwall with failed ducatos this summer me ansums. fred an is biddies ev got work to do. be warned. us will not tow u out. maybe for a kings ransom maybe, but depends on what king you subscribes to my luvvers.

fetchitfred
 
usermichele
Posted: 20 March 2008 7:56 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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Location: Autotrail Chieftain G


Fred where is Penpillick ?
 
userBasil
Posted: 21 March 2008 12:07 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
200010010010025


That is good news Andy, I hope that MMM can redeem themselves a bit they did at least allow some mention in the last mag didn't they?

Bas
 
userRoyH
Posted: 21 March 2008 6:20 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Well done Andy, seems like you are getting somewhere at last.

Michelle. I don't know if Fred actually lives there but there is a Penpillick, it is on a very steep hill with emergency lanes to run into if your brakes fail, on the A390 in Cornwall. This the road from Lostwithiel to St Austell just before you come to Tywardreath Highway near St Blazey. I know all this because until 2 years ago I lived in Par and from my back garden on one hill I could see Penpillick hill across the valley. I do miss Cornwall but it's to far away from everywhere else.

Sorry everybody, a bit off topic but I thought I would help Michele out.

Edited by RoyH 2008-03-21 6:22 PM
 
userPSHORT
Posted: 21 March 2008 6:25 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Posts: 87
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I am concerned because there are no hills near me to try the reversing up a steep gradient. I am more concerned that I may have to go back yet again for a future recall. My grumble is after paying 50k for a new motorhome that to find a Fiat Service Centre that offers a courtesy car or collection/delivery service is almost impossible. For work of a magnitude such as gearbox work the vehicle needs to go to a commercial service centre.These are often away from public transport and one should not need to call on friends for transport.
If one bought a 50K Fiat car I am sure a coutesy service would be available.
The worst response I had was from a Fiat Commercial Service centre in Southampton who admitted they had coutesy cars but when I said the work was for a 'recall' I was told all the courtsey cars were unavailable for the forseeable future. Eventually after many phone calls Fiat UK did arrange a hire car for me which worked very well. BUT have I got to through it all again, I bet I have.
 
userPSHORT
Posted: 21 March 2008 6:25 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
Visitor

Posts: 87
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Location: HANTS


I am concerned because there are no hills near me to try the reversing up a steep gradient. I am more concerned that I may have to go back yet again for a future recall. My grumble is after paying 50k for a new motorhome that to find a Fiat Service Centre that offers a courtesy car or collection/delivery service is almost impossible. For work of a magnitude such as gearbox work the vehicle needs to go to a commercial service centre.These are often away from public transport and one should not need to call on friends for transport.
If one bought a 50K Fiat car I am sure a coutesy service would be available.
The worst response I had was from a Fiat Commercial Service centre in Southampton who admitted they had coutesy cars but when I said the work was for a 'recall' I was told all the courtsey cars were unavailable for the forseeable future. Eventually after many phone calls Fiat UK did arrange a hire car for me which worked very well. BUT have I got to through it all again, I bet I have.
 
userfred grant
Posted: 21 March 2008 6:59 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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i am concerned my biddies as a certain number of forum members seem to be blaming mmm and other people for there fiat problems. its what me ol mate denzil calls the blame society and is a bit frightening when u think it out properly.
so, if any fiat brakes down on penpillick hill this summer me ansums this is advance warning. FRED OR PENBERTHY WILL NOT BRING UP THERE TRACTERS TO RESCUE U FOR NO KINGS RANSOM. fred will not be blamed for your problems in cornwall, or anywhere else cum to think about it. go an blame sumone else my luvvers. an don start on alice as she sort u out.

forsoothfred
 
userfred grant
Posted: 21 March 2008 7:00 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


Stalwart

Posts: 899
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Location: penpillick


i am concerned my biddies as a certain number of forum members seem to be blaming mmm and other people for there fiat problems. its what me ol mate denzil calls the blame society and is a bit frightening when u think it out properly.
so, if any fiat brakes down on penpillick hill this summer me ansums this is advance warning. FRED OR PENBERTHY WILL NOT BRING UP THERE TRACTERS TO RESCUE U FOR NO KINGS RANSOM. fred will not be blamed for your problems in cornwall, or anywhere else cum to think about it. go an blame sumone else my luvvers. an don start on alice as she sort u out.

forsoothfred
 
userAndyStothert
Posted: 21 March 2008 8:44 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Why are we getting two of everything?
Why are we getting two of everything?

Obviously I have a reason, what with all the juddering, and everything.

Tonight's little titbit concerns Bryan Whitehurst who has a juddering Dethleffs A697, and is equipped with that ridiculously powerful 3 litre engine, so I presume it's a big posh motorhome which cost him a tidy penny or three.
He took it in to the local Fiat garage for a service and he insisted that they test it, as he wasn't very happy about the juddering in reverse. Like the rest of us, he stupidly imagined that severe juddering was a sign that things weren't perhaps working in perfect harmony, and that, given time, something is bound to break.
When he picked it up his invoice has a hand written note on the bottom stating 'normal judder in reverse'.

Since when has a dementedly jumping engine and gearbox been 'normal'.

But fear not oh worried owners, for this is just a 'characteristic' of the vehicle, and should anything break (again) Fiat have assured me that it will be replaced under warranty.
They were a little more reticent to commit themselves about broken gearboxes and clutches when the warranty had expired, and remember, the clutch isn't coverd after two years.
The clock is ticking quite fast for many of us. Is yours?
If you haven't tried reversing your 2007- on Ducato or Boxer up a steep hill yet and you're wishing I'd stop bleating on about it then fine, stick your head in the sand. That way you'll never hear bad news.
But it'll still be there waiting for you on some inconvenient hill and possibly when the warranty has expired, which remember is only two years on some components.
So go and try it on a 1 in 5.
Then when you've done it, and it will judder, go and whinge at Fiat officially. Then email me, and if we get enough folk complaining, despite Fiats (and Peugeot's) dishonesty we may get something done.

Edited by AndyStothert 2008-03-21 8:59 PM
 
userAndyStothert
Posted: 21 March 2008 8:55 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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testing, testing, 1 2 3.

Have you still not reversed your Ducato or Boxer (2007 on models) up a steep hill?


Edited by AndyStothert 2008-03-21 9:00 PM
 
userAndyStothert
Posted: 22 March 2008 4:10 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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The campaign to get Fiat to take even the slightest bit of notice of its frustrated customers has stepped up a gear or two (with just a little light juddering) within the last few days with Dave Newell plugging the problem in Practical Motorhome, 'Gentleman Jack' (I don't think I'm allowed to divulge his true idenitity) giving it space in 'Motor Caravanner', which is 'out soon', and a letter from myself appearing in MMM.
What we're up against is more organised than I thought. It seems that folk have been complaining to their local Fiat garage about the juddering, and a few about that thumping underneath when the engine fires first on start-up, but it's looking like the garages have been briefed on how to fob everybody off without it becoming an official complaint.
And after all if the dealer tells you its nothing to worry about, and you don't know any different, well why go looking for problems?
I've had two emails today from owners who have been politely treated to a very slick brush off, and as they have no experience of the oily bits, no idea that the judder can get as bad as it does on steep gradients, nor that this can ruin clutches and gearboxes, thay have gone away thinking that Fiat know best.
The truth seems to be that once they have our money they aren't bothered about looking after the customer.
And this also applies to the major motorhome manufacturers - they are now well aware of this issue and continue to sell a product which they know to be, at best, flawed.
It's a month since our van went in for Fiat to 'test' again, and they are still refusing to say what conclusions they have arrived at. I've asked them to tell me whether they think it is defective, or not. Yes or no? And they won't.
The fact is that if they admit a single one is defective they admit that they all are. Every single Ducato, Boxer, and Relay which has come out of that factory, and are still coming out, will be by their own admission, defective. That's what happens when you call a defect a 'characteristic' of the vehicle.
I'm not sure we'll get anywhere with this in the end, when you consider the consequences for Fiat (et al) if we do, but we aren't going to give in quietly to corporate corruption, and big business bullying.

So if you still don't believe that big business can be so corrupt and that your 2007 onwards Ducato or Boxer camper/motorhome is not at risk of ruining its gearbox or clutch whilst reversing up a steep hill, well what have you got to lose from trying it?
When you have, email me with the result. If it doesn't judder we can get Fiat to tell us why it hasn't got the normal characteristics of the vehicle.
But enough rambling, even though it's too early for the Scotch (Talisker tonight), and little Fag Ash hasn' yet returned from the football.

andystothert@blueyonder.co.uk
 
userAndyStothert
Posted: 22 March 2008 8:55 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Fred,
Where are you when all around are juddering mad.
 
userRoyH
Posted: 22 March 2008 9:32 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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It's Saturday. It's Alice's weekly service day.
 
userjoiner
Posted: 22 March 2008 9:40 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Well done Andy. It`s a good job that somebody has the balls to keep at Fiat about this issue.
By the way I live about 20 miles from the Glenfiddoch, and Macallan stills ( and a good few others ). I will send you a bottle of each if you can get any action out of Fiat ( promise )
 
userDen
Posted: 22 March 2008 9:47 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Posts: 469
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what about the law it must be fit for the purpose it was sold and intended for ....this is back to where you made the purchase......
 
userUsinmyknaus
Posted: 23 March 2008 11:21 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Fiat should wake up to the damage done to their brand name by selling an obviously defective product and more importantly, the shoddy way they appear to be treating their disgruntled customers. In my experience a company's actions when something goes wrong is rather more memorable than an instance where everything goes well. I have a long memory for such things, for example I have boycotted IKEA for more than 20 years after an incident of exceptionally poor service.

Fiat should bear in mind that many people who have followed this appalling story will empathise very strongly with those who have shelled out their hard-earned cash in skip loads to buy a "dream" product which turned out to be a nightmare. Am I likely to invest in a Fiat product come replacement van time? No chance! I expect many others will share that view.

Bob
 
usermick&ann
Posted: 23 March 2008 11:41 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
New User

Posts: 17

Location: Bedfordshire


Hi all you unlucky owners of the Fiat x250's.I have a Chausson Alegro 93 it has all the usual faults associated with Fiat base including the reversing judder. And Fiat are of no help other than to suggest when reversing the motorhome to follow the instructions according to their news service sheet,ie using high revs(BURN THE CLUTCH OUT!) And all this after their engineer (FIAT) had tested the motorhome.
It also seems strange to me that motorhome magazine's have not picked up on this reversing issue whils testing the Fiat based motorhomes.
MMM are currently testing a Chausson Alegro 93 on their 1year test and the issue has not been raised on any test on this vehicle up to this month.I wonder why?
 
usermichele
Posted: 23 March 2008 11:56 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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Location: Autotrail Chieftain G


So Mick have you e mailed Andy ? I know he needs more people on his now long list .
 
usermick&ann
Posted: 23 March 2008 12:08 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Location: Bedfordshire


Hi Michele I already have and he has my tales of misfortune,and has the support of another motorhomer.
 
userAndyStothert
Posted: 23 March 2008 3:08 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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I think the reversing judder thing is now well and truly ingrained into all the motorhome testers minds now. The only ones I've not nagged at yet are Pete and Di Johnson, who, lucky bleeders, are presently incommunicado somewhere warm.
The folk who used the MMM Long Term Test Chausson, besides us, all used it quite briefly with a specific aim in mind. We had it first, and a bit longer then everybody else (whilst waiting for our new van) but to be honest, as I said, we found it too big to go where we like to go, and didn't like the layout, so it stood on the drive annoying me most of the time. I did pick up on the reversing judder, but thought it was just a one-off fault - until we started using our new van, and the penny then dropped that all might not be well.
But before anouncing to the world that I thought ALL our new motorhomes carried a defective gene (nobody greets
the bearer of bad news very kindly do they?) and before anybody could commit this thought to print, we had to be fairly sure that this was the case. Nobody else thought that a major manufacturer would risk putting a vehicle with such a basic defect onto the market, so the proposition wasn't warmly welcomed to start with.
And, like all the other dissatisfied owners, we messed about for a few months trying to talk to Fiat about a solution, before realising they were just messing us about.
Anyway, once we were sure about the defect being present on all of them, and becoming even more aware of what Fiat were intending to do about it (absolutely nothing) reluctantly I put all this on the forum.
Unfortunately I reckon it's going to take quite a fuss to get Fiat to rectify this because it is a basic and probably expensive fault which they have known about since before November 2006 - in fact before any were sold in this country.
A certain naivity, and the belief that human nature is good, probably delayed things a couple of months, as I still believed that Fiat would do the right thing. But they haven't.

If someone you know owns one of these late model Ducatos or Boxers (in your club, or rally group or whatever) spread the bad news a bit and ask them to try reversing up a steep hill.

And for those who own one of these Ducatos (or Boxers) and can't see yet what all the fuss is about, or that it is indeed an endemic fault on all vehicles, just ask yourself why Fiat haven't sorted it out for those who are complaining?
We are a bunch late middle age (or even less youthly) respectable, reasonably well-off folk who don't go out looking for hassle. All of us are experienced motorists who know when something isn't right, and Fiat are attempting to treat us like idiots. If they could have sorted it out easily then they would have.
And if this is the first time you've seen this forum or thread, and are wondering why some nutter keeps repeating the same insane rant for you to go and reverse your new Ducato or Boxer up a steep hill, just take the time to trawl back through it all.
Then go and try reversing it up a steep hill, and be (not pleasantly) surprised at what happens.

The email me with your conclusions
andystothert@blueyonder.co.uk




Edited by AndyStothert 2008-03-23 3:12 PM
 
userscotchjock
Posted: 23 March 2008 4:08 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
25
Location: Lunan Bay, Angus


Another worrying fact arose yesterday after driving through a ford. As I changed gear, for the next couple of miles, there was judder (in a forward direction). It stopped, presumably when the water dried up in the clutch. This is a 2007 LWB Relay van. I will await the next heavy rain.
 
userjoiner
Posted: 23 March 2008 7:16 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
New User

Posts: 5



I have a late 2007 LWB Maxi Ducato, and the clutch action can be as bad in first as it is in reverse. The van runs at just short of gross weight all the time,and I have little faith in the clutch lasting very long.
Long live my old Transit 9 (it could gross 6.5 tons with a trailer and no problems)!!!
 
userMel B
Posted: 23 March 2008 8:21 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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Location: E Yorks, 2012 Autocruise Accent on Fiat 2.3 130bhp


I read an article in the April 2008 issue of Which Motorcaravan the other night, it was a comparison of island bed low profile vans, all built on the new Fiat Ducato, three were LWB and one a maxi LWB, three had the 3-litre 157 bhp versions and one 2.3 130 bhp version. All four had 6 speed gearboxes.

According to the write up by Michale Le Caplain ALL of them, yes, ALL of them, suffered from the judder in reverse gear. He goes on to say that he's noticed this in "not a few Sevel-underpinned motorhomes in recent months.".

So, it is being mentioned in the mags - how long can Fiat et al hold out pretending this is normal?

I know that MMM et al are now going to mention/or have mentioned it, but surely they must now do more than this? If not, then how can they realistically be telling us, the punters, the truth about these vehicles? Much emphasis is given to the writers in such journals as being 'real motorhome owners' or the like, well, it is now time for them to stand up for the people who support them by buying the magazine.

I understand that they have to be sure of their facts first, but enough is enough, how many people have to have a problem before it is taking seriously and investigated thoroughly as a major defect by the motorhome press?
 
userjudderer
Posted: 23 March 2008 10:53 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
New User

Posts: 8



Hello.
I am new to the forum
For what its worth, I think the silence of all connected with this fiasco speaks volumes
The manufacturers,converters,dealers & press are perhaps frightened by the ramifications of admitting to a potentially flawed design.
If it were not a problem why not come out in the open (IE the press) and say so
For us each end user its grief and a waste of a few tens of thousands of pounds!!
But historically problems of this magnitude and the costs associated with a massive recall or worse still grounds for refunds could & have sunk companies into the abyss.
So i ask myself why arent any finanancially associated companies taking this seriously
 
userClive
Posted: 24 March 2008 3:20 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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Posts: 3138
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Location: New Milton


Have you seen the post by Libby?
 
userRoyH
Posted: 24 March 2008 5:28 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Posts: 286
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Location: West Berkshire


Give us a clue Clive Where is it (The post by Libby)
 
usermichele
Posted: 24 March 2008 6:53 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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Location: Autotrail Chieftain G


Roy H and others its called VW & Merc owners
 
userRoyH
Posted: 24 March 2008 7:48 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Thanks M. Seems a good idea of Libby's
 
userAndyStothert
Posted: 24 March 2008 8:42 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Greetings everyone, whether you've tried reversing your new model Ducato or Boxer up a steep hill or not.

It's probably time for a quick update as to what we've achieved so far and where all this is going.
I've had nearly sixty replies from owners of Fiat or Peugoet based motorhomes who are unhappy with the juddering in reverse gear whilst attempting to reverse up an incline.
Several, after hearing Fiat's 'characteristic' fob off have decided to quietly get rid before all this becomes common knowledge. It has cost them a great deal of money in some cases, but good luck to them.
That leaves, at this moment, 41 of us who want some sort of meaningful response from Fiat.
The media campaign we've embarked upon will hopefully raise the profile of this defect, and if we all keep it up long enough, affect sales figures of Fiat and Peugeot based motorhomes. When (if?) that happens then the major manufacturers may well put pressure on Fiat to find a solution.
This isn't really the way that I'd hoped this would be resolved, but Fiat and Peugoet are such big powerful companies that there seems to be no way of influencing them directly.
In addition to blitzing the motorhome press about this, and the two big clubs, we intend to give this matter an airing on television if possible, and also take some more direct action at certain shows and exhibitions if Fiat (and Peugeot) don't take steps to resolve our complaints.

If we do have something going against us it is that of convincing other motorhomers that the slight juddering in the transmission in normal use can, in certain circumstances (a steep hill), become a serious risk to the long term health of their motorhome. So in some ways I think the real impediment to our chances of getting this matter resolved is the apathy within our ranks.
But such is life.

If it judders email me -andystothert@blueyonder.co.uk

Edited by AndyStothert 2008-03-24 8:47 PM
 
usersooty10
Posted: 24 March 2008 8:55 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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Posts: 190
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Location: Nelson Lancashire and Benalmadena Costa Spain


I am sure many people after reading about the reversing trouble will postpone buying a new motorhome. Ourselves included, we were in the market for a new Auto Trail and have booked the Peterborough show to do just this. I will however be telling the dealers why we are NOT buying 'till this has been sorted. Just hope if others did the same it may make the dealers think.

Good luck with your campaign.

Sooty 10.
 
userDen
Posted: 24 March 2008 9:05 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Posts: 469
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Location: Worcester


autotrail on a merc. its a nice combination we had the 696g .faultless only sold because we coud'nt sleep in the bed claustophobic .but the only van we had that was faultless.
 
userlibby
Posted: 24 March 2008 9:06 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
500100100


Quote from Andy

"If we do have something going against us it is that of convincing other motorhomers that the slight juddering in the transmission in normal use can, in certain circumstances (a steep hill), become a serious risk to the long term health of their motorhome. So in some ways I think the real impediment to our chances of getting this matter resolved is the apathy within our ranks."

(Yes Andy I even got ribbed for supporting you! LB)
 
usermichele
Posted: 24 March 2008 9:29 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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Location: Autotrail Chieftain G


Libby ,
you take no notice I think the more support that Andy or anyone gets the better . There for the grace of god go I . It could of been anyone of us I will lend support if possible and I to will certainly be telling anyone who will listen at every available opportunity I get .

keep up the good work I was just thinking of having a word with a friend to see if Tommy walsh or Ray Winstone would take it up .
Thing is wouldthe BBC take it up ? I dont know but I could try .


 
userClive
Posted: 25 March 2008 4:53 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


Stalwart

Posts: 3138
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Location: New Milton


Autotrail on a Merc,
I agree, faultless and a joy to drive. Our Scout Lowline has just past its 10 year mark and cranked up an amazing 40,000 miles. Just about run in!.
Its had more paint/waxoil on the underside than the top!
If anybody fancies her later this year if we agree to a deal on the next MH then please PM me.
C.

 
userAndyStothert
Posted: 25 March 2008 8:13 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Tonight's not so thrilling instalment in the Defective Ducatos and Boxers saga concerns the new and really quite imaginative ways Fiat are finding to fob-off their dissatisfied customers who have sunk fifty grand plus on a new vehicle.

I've had an email today from one disgruntled motorhomer who bought a new Auto Trail Arapaho last year with the 2.3 litre engine and 6 speed box on a 4 ton chassis.
Like all the others it judders like mad on even a not-so-steep gradient and when he complained to Fiat they told him it was the weight of the motorhome which made them do this, and nothing else.
But then he saw the letter in this month's MMM from me, whose motorhome weighs less than 2500kg and he got to wondering if perhaps Fiat had been a little economical with the truth.............
As if?

Also, Fiat seem to have changed their tactics in recording complaints of this nature. They have now adopted the Peugeot 'model' and are refusing to accept complaints over the phone about reversing up hills. They now insist that the vehice is booked in a local dealer where they WILL tell you that there is nothing wrong with it, and that's the end of the matter - So no complaint recorded.
This is all getting rather sordid on Fiat's part. What have they got to hide?
 
userClive
Posted: 25 March 2008 10:13 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


Stalwart

Posts: 3138
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Location: New Milton


Its their ASSETS they are hiding Andy, they don,t want you or any other Fiat owner having any part of them.
C.
 
userAndyStothert
Posted: 26 March 2008 5:29 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Today's Fiat victim is Bob Harper, from Glasgow who bought a new Hymer B540SL last year. He too is seriously concerned about the juddering whilst attempting any kind of uphill reversing, and Fiat refused to register an official complaint until the vehicelhad been examined by a Fiat dealer.
Well, today it went into Reg Vardy in Glasgow and the service manager road tested it. Bob tells me that the manager was that concerned about the juddering that they have booked it in (April 2nd) to inspect the clutch, gearbox, and engine mountings.
It will be very interesting to see how Fiat deal with this, what they tell the garage, and what Vardy's have to say to Bob when he collects the van.

I'm struggling to get a foothold in Peugeot's very secure door so if one of the Peugeot owners would like to become more fully involved just email me. I can't even get any sense out of the Peugeot PR people.

REVERSE THAT LATE MODEL DUCATO OR BOXER UP A STEEP HILL NOW.
If you don't think the juddering is a sound engineering 'characteristic' of the vehicle (Fiat's description of it) then email me

andystothert@bluyonder.co.uk


Edited by AndyStothert 2008-03-26 5:50 PM
 
userpeter
Posted: 26 March 2008 9:44 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


Stalwart

Posts: 6434
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Location: Boston Linc's. Frankia i640SD 2014


This is very worrying for the unfortunate folks that own these engineering disasters, as it is going to absolutely murder resale values. I for one, wouldn't touch one with a bargeploe.
 
userRayjsj
Posted: 27 March 2008 4:37 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


Stalwart

Posts: 2340
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Location: Way out West (Wales) Autotrail Savannah


Whenever a product (Sevel X/250) gets a virtual monopoly of a market this type of situation is always a possibility.
They are unlikely to 'actually' DO something about it UNTIL they get hit in the order books HARD. As we buy our Motorhomes 3rd hand ( 1st Fiat,2nd Autotrail Etc., 3rd The Dealer. ) this could take a while to happen. Also I suspect (from a Fiat reps. strong denial of any problems at the NEC) that the problem is a fundamental one and is going to be very expensive to resolve. So, this could Run and Run,even longer and nastier than the 5th gear problem on the previous chassis,and which was never truly 'Fixed' until a redesigned gearbox emerged.
WE DESERVE BETTER ! motorhomes are not cheap. I agree with Peter don't touch them with a bargepole, until they come clean and FIX IT
 
usertrooper
Posted: 27 March 2008 5:38 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
Contributor

Posts: 385
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Location: Hingham Norfolk


Hi can someone send a hill to norfolk so I can check mine.
 
userGregory
Posted: 27 March 2008 6:23 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
New User

Posts: 17

Location: West Lothian



I'm just grateful for the fact these forums exist, so we can freely exchange views and information, also to the man who started the ball rolling so we all know what's going on, if we were relying on any other medium to inform us, we'd be like mushrooms.

I still can't believe the number of posts where folks just seem to be burying their head in the sand and worse, still buying them.

Cheers,

Greg.
 
userfred grant
Posted: 27 March 2008 7:16 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


Stalwart

Posts: 899
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Location: penpillick


only time fred berries is head in the sand me ansums is when alice announces a trip to marks ans spencers.

fred digs a hole six foot deep and makes sure its well berried my biddies.

finkinfred
 
usergraham
Posted: 27 March 2008 7:18 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
Regular Visitor

Posts: 159
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Location: Autocruise Starfire 2011


Only a small impact I know but I was recently in the market for a car and a scooter. I was seriously considering Peugeot versions of both but instead bought a Ford and a Gilera thanks to what is gouing on hetre.
 
usertrooper
Posted: 27 March 2008 8:29 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
Contributor

Posts: 385
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Location: Hingham Norfolk


I dont think anyone is sticking thier head in the sand, I cant help if ive had mine over a year and the base vehicle has been almost perfect, or that on what small slopes i have reversed it ,it has been o/k, or that norfolk is flat as someone posted a few days ago. No, I would do anythingI could to help bring these problems to a satisfactory conclusion, but it do'snt help for me to complain about problems I dont personely have (what problems have you had?er,er,well actually none, or actualy I drive another make,)
I think these people who are involved need to contact ,papers local radio, ect to get their voice heard.
I just wish the best to all, as life is too short to have to put up with this hastle.
 
userparkmoy
Posted: 27 March 2008 8:52 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
Contributor

Posts: 332
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Location: 2001 Compass Navigator 360e on a VW 2.5 TDi


I cant help if ive had mine over a year and the base vehicle has been almost perfect, or that on what small slopes i have reversed it ,it has been o/k, or that norfolk is flat


I'm not getting at you here, but doesn't it bother you at all that you may have major problems on bigger hills outside Norfolk? Don't you want to know?

What about the fact that a lot of people now wouldn't touch your van secondhand with a barge pole?

Whether you like it or not this will affect you one way or another.
 
userShaun
Posted: 27 March 2008 10:00 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Posts: 192
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Once again, we have negative assertions as to future sales of Ducatos, etc. It's pure speculation as to what the market will be for any vehicle. Some of these comments are insulting to those who've bought Ducatos and are perfectly happy with them. I have one, I've reversed it up a steep incline and I couldn't get it to judder. I wouldn't swap it for anything else at the same price and I'm confident as one can be with any vehicle, as to its future value.

There can be no doubt that there is a judder problem for plenty of people with the Ducato and its stablemates, and there's no doubt that considerable effort is being made by the likes of Andy to have the problem acknowledged and resolved. But, meanwhile, to suggest that the market for motorhomes on this chassis, will decline or already has, because of people avoiding them... well, let's see some hard facts to back up that assertion, not speculation.

Shaun
 
userpeter
Posted: 27 March 2008 10:42 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


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Posts: 6434
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Location: Boston Linc's. Frankia i640SD 2014


Shaun - 2008-03-27 10:00 PM

Once again, we have negative assertions as to future sales of Ducatos, etc. It's pure speculation as to what the market will be for any vehicle. Some of these comments are insulting to those who've bought Ducatos and are perfectly happy with them. I have one, I've reversed it up a steep incline and I couldn't get it to judder. I wouldn't swap it for anything else at the same price and I'm confident as one can be with any vehicle, as to its future value.

There can be no doubt that there is a judder problem for plenty of people with the Ducato and its stablemates, and there's no doubt that considerable effort is being made by the likes of Andy to have the problem acknowledged and resolved. But, meanwhile, to suggest that the market for motorhomes on this chassis, will decline or already has, because of people avoiding them... well, let's see some hard facts to back up that assertion, not speculation.

Shaun
Here's a hard fact. I wouldn't touch one with a bargepole. How's that?.
 
userAndyStothert
Posted: 27 March 2008 9:48 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Posts: 554
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I was going to do my nightly rant and ask you all to find a steep hill to reverse your Ducato or Boxer up, but everybody else is doing it for me.
But go and do it anyway.
And if it judders(which it will because Fiat say they all do) and you're not happy about this 'Normal Juddering' (another of Fiat's descriptions, but doesn't mention abnormally wrecking gearboxes and clutches) then email me
andystothert@blueyonder.co.uk
 
userparkmoy
Posted: 27 March 2008 10:19 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
Contributor

Posts: 332
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Location: 2001 Compass Navigator 360e on a VW 2.5 TDi


But, meanwhile, to suggest that the market for motorhomes on this chassis, will decline or already has, because of people avoiding them... well, let's see some hard facts to back up that assertion, not speculation.


Shaun, it's great that your MH isn't affected by the problem but you can't really believe that all this adverse publicity won't affect future values.

You ask for hard facts and of course they aren't available, but consider this. I for one was going to change my van at the end of the season and I wanted a Ducato based one because of the good write ups. Now, I've decided to upgrade my van and hang on to it.

Would I buy a Sevel based van second hand or new in the future? No way, until this has been sorted and even then I would have a very jaundiced view of Peugot/Fiat's customer service.

How many others do you think feel the same?
 
usermichele
Posted: 27 March 2008 10:27 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


5000500050010010010025
Location: Autotrail Chieftain G


As you all know my husband does not use the forum although he is in the background . I obviously tell him things on here as far as he is concerned we wont be swopping in the near future either until this is sorted .

 
userGregory
Posted: 28 March 2008 12:30 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
New User

Posts: 17

Location: West Lothian



As I've previously stated I'm someone in the market for another van and as a VW fan, I was trying not to be so blinkered therefor considering other vehicle options. Now solely because of this thread, I know what I'm going to avoid.

I'm not having a pop at anyone who has a Sevel, just trying to help the cause. If your van is okay that's great, it just so happens there appears to be a serious fault in many of these vehicles.

I've got nothing to gain by contacting Fiat, converters, clubs and mags as I have. I do it because people who share the same pastime, have parted with big bucks and don't have what they paid for, and but for this forum, I might have been among them. (just might though, I still like vee dubs)

Cheers,

Greg.
 
userPSHORT
Posted: 28 March 2008 10:07 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
Visitor

Posts: 87
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Location: HANTS


Has anybody had any input from the commercial/white van driver users of these vehicles?
The 'white van' driver is surley harder on gearboxes than we are.
If they have had problems and were brought into the frame Fiat would be more likely to take notice. Also there must be commercial uses of Fiat vans who are also motorcaravanners. Have we heard from anyone with that background?
 
userscotchjock
Posted: 28 March 2008 12:29 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
25
Location: Lunan Bay, Angus


As I posted earlier, the problem is occuring on my Citreon Relay LWB van, and also a colleague with the same van has the same judder. In my case, it is worse in extremely wet weather. The local main agent's service manager was less than sympathetic when I reported the fault, saying that no one else had complained. This I know to be incorrect.
 
userAndyStothert
Posted: 28 March 2008 1:44 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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Roy, owner of the Citroen LWB van.


You are my worst nightmare. The task of getting Fiat and Peugeot to do anything is proving horrendous, so having a third manufacturer to chase is a dauntng prospect.
But all us mugs are in this together so can you email me, and I'll send you the information sheet and a list of car/van thieves/arsonists we reccommend.
For all those who can't recognise silliness the last reference to thieves and arsonists was just a piece of very juvenile sick silly humour. OK?
 
userRayjsj
Posted: 28 March 2008 1:37 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


Stalwart

Posts: 2340
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Location: Way out West (Wales) Autotrail Savannah


PSHORT - 2008-03-28 10:07 AM

Has anybody had any input from the commercial/white van driver users of these vehicles?
The 'white van' driver is surley harder on gearboxes than we are.
If they have had problems and were brought into the frame Fiat would be more likely to take notice. Also there must be commercial uses of Fiat vans who are also motorcaravanners. Have we heard from anyone with that background?




How many 'White Van Men' do you see driving Fiat/Citroen/Peugeot X/250 Based Vans and small trucks ????? I counted 3 on the Long M4 drive back to West Wales, as opposed to 'Shed loads' (a Lot !!) of Merc.
Sprinters,Ford Transits and Renault Masters and Traffic's.
White Van man doesn't seem to like Fiat's at ANY price.
What does that say to you ???? they seem to to be a favourite for motorhome converters though , because they are Cheap.
Be Careful out there !
 
userTomo3090
Posted: 28 March 2008 12:07 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


Stalwart

Posts: 1201
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Location: Warrington, Centre of the known World!


The problem that anyone arguing this with the vehicle manufacturers is that there doeasn't seem to be a great groudswell of complaint from anyone outside this forum, as far as can be seen. If you go by those voting on the other thread there are only 31 people experiencing "judder". Now I don't know how many people have these type of chassis compared to others, i.e. VW, Mercs, Fords etc so it's difficult to evaluate the size of the defect to say there will be a problem with future sales and re sales.

If the dealers and vehicle franchise outlets don't seem to be too concerned, and it's their profits at stake if people cancel orders or don't return, a large proportion of owners are having fairly trouble free motoring, it isn't a major safety factor and van sales are steady, which they are according to the magazines and web sites, then the manufacturers are hardly likely to admit failure and put themselves at risk financially by having to re-design or re-tool a gearbox in what is the best selling vehicle chassis and engine in the business.

Virtually all the vehicle manufacturers have people who have had lesser or greater faults. On the other large web site, Motorhome Facts there is virtually no mention of this problem, they are kicking up a stink about the water in the engine compartment issue but not this, so it is hardly surprising that there is no great panic in the industry at large.

If it happens to be your van that is affected, (and I might be in this position after May), then I can see why it is a big issue but then that is the case with anything you buy whether it is a motorhome or not.

I am NOT faulting Andys', or anyone elses commitment to this, or suggesting that there is no problem at all but there needs to be a more organised look at this before we all start spitting at each other!
 
userAndyStothert
Posted: 28 March 2008 1:35 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
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I've had an interesting email from a chap called Roberto Baldi in Italy. He is spearheading a campaign in Italy to attempt to get Fiat to address this problem which is exactly the same one as here - but more so. As here, the 6 speed models are the ones which are worst, but because the vehicle has been on sale for longer there they claim to know exactly what the problem is.
I shall let you know more details from Roberto when I've had a conversation with him, but from his brief email it is looking like the only fix would be a completely redesigned gearbox for the 6 speed models.

And about the posting from Shaun who says he hasn't any problems with his - I presume it's a 5 speed model. They are juddering, but not until an extreme hill is encountered. If it's a 6 speed model then he's either employed by Fiat, or hasn't tested it properly yet. We are now that certain of the facts. The 6 speed models are ALL seriouly flawed.

Sales will be affected in the end but how long it will take to show up is another matter.
However I and all the other discontents will be doing all we can to ENSURE sales of these base vehicles are very seriously affected unless Fiat/Peugeot come up with a satisfactory solution or extended warranty offer. And we have some quite high profile stunts and media offerings to come. If a cure isn't found these vehicles will be virtually unsaleable as second hand units, and that should worry everyone. No matter which model it is.
If you own one of these late model Ducatos or Boxers it really is in your own interests to acknowledge the grim truth - then complain to Fiat or Peugeot. That way if it fails just out of warranty at least there is the chance of getting some satisfaction from Fiat as it will be an ongoing case.

If you have a juddering Fiat or Peugeot and think you can help to get this sorted out (even if it just means swelling the ranks) email me
andystothert@blueyonder.co.uk

Edited by AndyStothert 2008-03-28 1:37 PM
 
userTomo3090
Posted: 28 March 2008 3:21 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


Stalwart

Posts: 1201
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Location: Warrington, Centre of the known World!


Andy, do you know if they bring their own matches or do we have to supply them ourselves, and can we claim this from FIAT!
 
userTomo3090
Posted: 28 March 2008 5:58 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


Stalwart

Posts: 1201
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Location: Warrington, Centre of the known World!


Just to clarify something. Do the automatic gearbox vans judder as well? Because if not then the judder might be a clutch thing as opposed to the gearbox being faulty.
 
usermco
Posted: 28 March 2008 7:44 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


Regular Visitor

Posts: 205
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Location: South West Scotland


Andy.
I've only just come in on this as I'm not personally involved because our motor home is Ford based but it seems to me that MMM should be fully supporting you in this very important campaign and warning readers against buying the vehicles involved.

Do MMM intend to do this? If not, why not?

M. O.
 
userfred grant
Posted: 28 March 2008 9:17 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


Stalwart

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mco - 2008-03-28 7:44 PM

Andy.
I've only just come in on this as I'm not personally involved because our motor home is Ford based but it seems to me that MMM should be fully supporting you in this very important campaign and warning readers against buying the vehicles involved.

Do MMM intend to do this? If not, why not?

M. O.


alice says there was about 3 peges of fiat stuff in the last mmm, and wot is this web site if its not part of mmm my biddy?? come on wake up mco. talk about fred berrying is ed in the sand.

flatulentfred
 
userAndyStothert
Posted: 28 March 2008 8:44 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 
Permanent Fixture

Posts: 554
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Yes, MMM are going to chuck their weight in with it - a letter appeared in this months mag and in the June issue the whole sorry saga gets an airing.
I've no doubt some of the advertisers will attempt to sabotage it but there is now enough evidence to make it a consumer protection issue, and this should ensure the pressure from the advertisers is resisted.
 
usermco
Posted: 28 March 2008 9:57 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems
 


Regular Visitor

Posts: 205
100100
Location: South West Scotland


Andy.
I am pleased to hear that MMM are going to support you and hopefully warn it's readers of this problem, so that prospective buyers can make an informed decision before purchasing a new motor home.

I would have little respect for MMM if they did anything less than this.

M. O.
 
usermco