AndyStothert Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 As many of you will probably know I bought a new Fiat camper in May 2007 and it is suffering from the seemingly endemic juddering in the transmission whilst reversing uphill. Our is a 2.3 litre version with 6 speed box. I took it to the local dealer to whinge and they informed me that Fiat were aware of the problem and were advising owners to use more revs and everything woud be fine. After driving several motorhomes based on the various combinations of chassis and engine it seems thart the problem is an endemic one. In July we were compelled to reverse up a steep hill for quite some distance and the juddering was truly awful. Immedaitely afterwards the gearbox lost synchro on second and third gears. As a result of this a new gearbox was (eventually) fitted. This should worry every owner of the new Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen because whilst the situation we found ourselves in (having to reverse up a steep hill in the mountains) doesn't occurr very often the fact that it can damage the gearbox if these conditions are met is serious. Fiat tell me not to worry - they will honour the warranty - but what if you end up in this situation for the first time, and it results in a knackered gearbox after three years and one day? If you have a judder whilst reversing uphill start complaining to Fiat. Do not accept the 'use more revs' fob off. If you haven't got a Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen, I would suggest you don't buy one until this potentailly expensive problem is resolved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 Andy, Sorry to hear of your woes and fortunately I don't have, and don't intend having, one of these vans for a long time yet. It does occur to me that there seem to be many and varied issues with these new vans and maybe, as you have journalistic 'clout', you might consider organising a help forum specifically for owners of said vans? Maybe all warranty and durability topics can be coordinated and consolidated in one source of reference - preferably in MMM print - so that any and all owners with problem vehicles and problem dealers can show their dealers the source and hopefully, the voracity, of the information? I appreciate that this might not endear Warners and MMM to Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen and I fear that the publishers may very well be afraid of the repercussions of offending the manufacturers. That said, maybe a well founded, informative, constructive and high profile campaign might be good for sales on MMM and it would certainly do Warners street cred with the great motorhome buying public no harm whatsoever. We are tired of being taken for a ride and financially abused by base vehicle makers, converters and the government. What about it Andy? Does anyone else feel the same or are we just peeing against the wind of reality? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred grant Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 Trakker my luvver it do sound as if youm got a spot of indejestion alice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 fred grant - 2008-01-17 3:19 PM Trakker my luvver it do sound as if youm got a spot of indejestion alice Knot at awl Alice me andsum, but us do get more than a bit brassed off with companies and services givin' us a bad time and not much carin' what happens next as long as they's got us's hard earned spondoolicks. But then I always was an unreasonable bugger - fancy any fool expectin' to get good service and integrity all the time. Silly me! It do also tend to reflect on them what do care 'cos when things do go wrong some folks gets irate before 'tis time to and it dun't 'elp do it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike H Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 Andy. Got the same problem, like a lot of other owners, have tried more revs and it doesn't work. Got stuck on a friends drive it just wouldn't go up the drive in reverse. I had to turn around on the drive and lawn to be able drive the van out. Suggestions, on another forum, about not using any revs, is OK on the flat, but as soon as there is a slight incline it starts to judder. Fiat told me last week to ask the Dealer to look at it when it goes in for recall work and water ingress to be sorted. I have heard that owners have been told it is a ratio problem and to get on with it. If this is the case, it needs to be sorted and the correct ratio gear fitted. You didn't say if the new gearbox was OK or not? Has it solved the problem? Mike H. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corky 8 Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 Tracker - 2008-01-17 1:22 PM Andy, Sorry to hear of your woes and fortunately I don't have, and don't intend having, one of these vans for a long time yet. It does occur to me that there seem to be many and varied issues with these new vans and maybe, as you have journalistic 'clout', you might consider organising a help forum specifically for owners of said vans? Maybe all warranty and durability topics can be coordinated and consolidated in one source of reference - preferably in MMM print - so that any and all owners with problem vehicles and problem dealers can show their dealers the source and hopefully, the voracity, of the information? I appreciate that this might not endear Warners and MMM to Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen and I fear that the publishers may very well be afraid of the repercussions of offending the manufacturers. That said, maybe a well founded, informative, constructive and high profile campaign might be good for sales on MMM and it would certainly do Warners street cred with the great motorhome buying public no harm whatsoever. We are tired of being taken for a ride and financially abused by base vehicle makers, converters and the government. What about it Andy? Does anyone else feel the same or are we just peeing against the wind of reality? Hi Tracker, :-D Not having come across any problems (as yet ) with my 04 Fiat, I am still concerned enough about the Treatment a lot of sevel vehicle owners get, could we not get our Boffins on these Forums to put together some form of general complaint covering the lack of interest ,lack of customer service etc etc, shown by the Sevel three an most agent there of , worded to suit the whole situation ,(it would take some discussion to sort out the wording), but once formulated and made available as a download to be sent by one and all to the appropriate dept of Sevel, BUT there lies its downfall every owner of the Sevel motor,s taking the trouble to download and post it, But its a start of some sort of gathering of the Sevel Clan one would hope, what do you think, the more ideas the better , 8-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Madge Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 Corky 8 - 2008-01-17 4:53 PM Tracker - 2008-01-17 1:22 PM Andy, Sorry to hear of your woes and fortunately I don't have, and don't intend having, one of these vans for a long time yet. It does occur to me that there seem to be many and varied issues with these new vans and maybe, as you have journalistic 'clout', you might consider organising a help forum specifically for owners of said vans? Maybe all warranty and durability topics can be coordinated and consolidated in one source of reference - preferably in MMM print - so that any and all owners with problem vehicles and problem dealers can show their dealers the source and hopefully, the voracity, of the information? I appreciate that this might not endear Warners and MMM to Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen and I fear that the publishers may very well be afraid of the repercussions of offending the manufacturers. That said, maybe a well founded, informative, constructive and high profile campaign might be good for sales on MMM and it would certainly do Warners street cred with the great motorhome buying public no harm whatsoever. We are tired of being taken for a ride and financially abused by base vehicle makers, converters and the government. What about it Andy? Does anyone else feel the same or are we just peeing against the wind of reality? Hi Tracker, :-D Not having come across any problems (as yet ) with my 04 Fiat, I am still concerned enough about the Treatment a lot of sevel vehicle owners get, could we not get our Boffins on these Forums to put together some form of general complaint covering the lack of interest ,lack of customer service etc etc, shown by the Sevel three an most agent there of , worded to suit the whole situation ,(it would take some discussion to sort out the wording), but once formulated and made available as a download to be sent by one and all to the appropriate dept of Sevel, BUT there lies its downfall every owner of the Sevel motor,s taking the trouble to download and post it, But its a start of some sort of gathering of the Sevel Clan one would hope, what do you think, the more ideas the better , 8-) Hi, I think the thread is about the latest range of Ducatos not the model you have. Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chas Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 Always thought that when juddering in reverse particulary on a incline shows that there is some misalignment with the clutch plates on contact to the flywheel, it needs to me inspected by a trained mechanic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike B. Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 I had this problem with my last van which had a smaller 2L engine. Even on almost level it would moan and groan a bit in reverse and reversing onto leveling blocks was almost impossible. I now have a 2.8 2005 model and have never had a problem with it-As original post referred to 2.3 model, is this the only model with this problem or have the New model larger engine vans encountered it also? Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Jones Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 Not just Fords then? (With apols to Way2go) Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted January 17, 2008 Author Share Posted January 17, 2008 No, the new gearbox hasn't made any difference, but I suppose the point I was trying to make is that because I've had a right go at Fiat, and they have opened a complaints file, they say that they will back up the warranty even if the problems aren't resolved within the warranty period. If you have one of these vehicles and don't complaint officially the scenario which I outlined (a knackered gearbox as a result of the fault outside of the warranty period) then Fiat (or Peugeot or Citroen) will not shoulder any responsibility. Hence my advice to complain long and loud which I'm continuing to do. Fiat do say they are investigating, but this has now been going on since the launch of the new van. My next step will be to visit strategic locations (Fiat and certain motorhome dealers), stand outside with a large banner encouraging folk not to buy the product and inviting the local press and police along. It may not do any good, but with a bit of luck I'll get locked up and then whinge even harder to the press at court ........... And is anyone prepared to share in the cost of a full page advert in MMM or one of the other magazines? Assuming they will carry it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigal55 Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 andy i,ve a similar promise from fiat that they will repair any damage to the engine bay due to water ingress even if it is out of warranty, i had to threaten my dealer with the sale of goods act before anybody would acknowledge there was a problem with water ingress. iv,e posted on this forum telling anybody with the x250 complain, as fiat are taking the cheapest option and only fixing the vans of people who complain. white van man generally does,t care and they far outnumber m/home owners. i would certainly contribute towards the cost of of an advert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 Told you to by a Merc Andy! or even a Transit (RWD). I guess the problem requires a change to suspension, engine mounting, clutch, dampers, drive shafts etc to take the natural resonant frequency of the dynamics well away from where they are. The mass of the body will also come into the equasion. Is this problem just on coach builts or do van conversions suffer similarly? looking forward to your next set of photo,s in the mag. Good luck C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 I have every sympathy with those who have spent substantial sums of their hard earned. The only way Fiat will take any notice is when their sales plumet. I had the classic 5th gear problem four weeks after the warranty expired and they did not give a toss. It will be a long time before I buy another Fiat. I do hope that your probs are soon sorted. Stuart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 18, 2008 Share Posted January 18, 2008 Mike H: The gearbox ratios of Fiat Ducatos are stated on: http://www.italiaspeed.com/new_models/2006/fiat/ducato/technical_specification.html Assuming the information is correct, it seems that the 5-speed gearbox fitted to the 100PS 2.2-litre motor and the 6-speed gearbox used on the 157PS 3.0-litre motor have a reverse gear slightly higher than 1st gear. (By that I mean, for the same number of engine revs, you'd go faster in reverse gear than going forward in 1st-gear). Conversely, the 6-speed gearbox on the 120PS 2.3-litre motor has a reverse gear a fair bit lower than 1st. The snag is that, if one takes the 2.3 motor as an example, there appear to be alternative final-drive ratios in some cases. So a motorhome with this engine/gearbox and the lower final-drive ratio may easily be able to climb the side of a house going backwards or forwards (see the Geist test in 01/08's CC magazine), whereas another with the same engine/gearbox, but with the higher final-drive ratio, may be far touchier when starting from rest (in either direction). I would suggest (with some trepidation) that, where there are alternative gearbox ratios for a 'chassis' that is to be converted into a motorhome, it's up to the motorhome manufacturer to choose the version with the most suitable ratios. Most drivers will be able to detect whether or not a vehicle's 1st and reverse gears are high. In the case of motorhomes, if these gears are high, it's going to be a never-ending bugbear as (even if there is no juddering) it's always going to put stress on the vehicle's transmission. Andy: You could always do what a Lotus owner did in the 1960s. Despairing of getting any joy regarding the many problems with his new car, he drove the vehicle to the Motor Show at Earls Court before it opened, parked it directly outside the main entrance, put a big placard on the windscreen listing his grievances and then immobilised the car by rapidly removing all its wheels. It got a good deal of press coverage, but I doubt it caused much positive response from Lotus who were always known for non-existent quality control. Might be worth trying on the NEC Show press day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Madge Posted January 18, 2008 Share Posted January 18, 2008 Clive - 2008-01-17 9:33 PM Told you to by a Merc Andy! or even a Transit (RWD). I guess the problem requires a change to suspension, engine mounting, clutch, dampers, drive shafts etc to take the natural resonant frequency of the dynamics well away from where they are. The mass of the body will also come into the equasion. Is this problem just on coach builts or do van conversions suffer similarly? looking forward to your next set of photo,s in the mag. Good luck C. Clive, Andy has a van coversion, I think it's right across the board. Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted January 18, 2008 Share Posted January 18, 2008 chas - 2008-01-17 5:07 PM Always thought that when juddering in reverse particulary on a incline shows that there is some misalignment with the clutch plates on contact to the flywheel, it needs to me inspected by a trained mechanic. Judder in reverse gear, whilst not limited to front wheel drive, has always been a front wheel drive 'trait' and it seems to result mainly from a combination of inadequate engine mounts combined with too high a reverse gear ratio and a very short drive train length (compared to an in line engine, gearbox and differential on a rear wheel drive). Oil on the clutch plates from leaky crankshaft oil seals can also cause it, but on a new vehicle this seems unlikely? Early minis (1959) suffered badly and BMC soon installed a rubber bushed engine brace between the cylinder head and the bulkhead to cut down engine rocking. This helped no end but even then they could still judder. The engineering can't be that difficult as most cars are front wheel drive these days and most cars don't suffer reverse judder in spite of having a far higher power to weight ratio than most vans. This leads non technical me to think that it may well be a design failing and might well be nigh on impossible to cure without redesigning the engine mounts and changing the gear ratios? No wonder Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen just want you all to go away? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 18, 2008 Share Posted January 18, 2008 The main encouragement comes from the fact that Fiat admit to there being a problem, and have invited Andy to register a formal complaint. From Andy's description, it sounds as though some aspect of drive train, or possibly suspension, mountings works OK when absorbing the torque reactions to driving away forward, but is inadequate when doing so in reverse.Changing the engine damping, suspension bushes, or other resilient mountings, as Clive implies, would seem the most likely solution. However, someone at Fiat has to work out what to change, and the company then has to sanction the necessary changes. I doubt it would result in a recall, probably, if anything at all, just a "quiet" little change when the vehicle is next being serviced. If the owner has never mentioned the problem, it is quite possible nothing would be changed. The lesson must be to complain to a Fiat commercial repairer.I do wonder if this problem is recognised outside the world of motorhomes, as so many vans seem to spend most of their time very lightly loaded, whereas motorhomes are relatively heavy even when "running light".It seems to me, assuming all the above conjecture may have some basis in fact, that the threat of publicity may wield more influence than the actual publicity. Contact between MMM and Fiat's commercial managers, along the lines that "we are hearing increasing complaints of acute judder problems while reversing, and would like Fiat's take on the issue before publishing" might prove more productive than immediately telling all in public. The latter course would seem to me likely to put the company into defencive mode, the former may worry them far more - because they won't know what may be said. Fiat, and their "Sevel partners", have invested heavily in the motorhome market and won't be over anxious to get yet more bad publicity for their vans (leaks into engine bays and failing ECUs). Ford must have made quite a hole in their traditional sales, and Renault vans are clearly selling quite well too. The Sevel partners know they are in a fight, they must be concerned, so I think just work on those concerns for best results.I think George needs to get busy on the phone, and start working on Fiat's worry receptors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Way2Go Posted January 18, 2008 Share Posted January 18, 2008 Tony Jones - 2008-01-17 7:37 PM Not just Fords then? (With apols to Way2go) Tony 8-) (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonB Posted January 18, 2008 Share Posted January 18, 2008 Derek I was under the impression, mabe wrong, that the 2.2 litre engines fitted in the Sevel chassis were Ford/Iveco based engines and a different engine entirely from the Fiat Ducato? Either way are the Ford/Iveco's also suffering this sorry state of affairs? Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Posted January 18, 2008 Share Posted January 18, 2008 Is this a front wheel drive only problem? I am looking at a RWD Iveco?? C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vernon B Posted January 18, 2008 Share Posted January 18, 2008 Sorry to hear about your problem Andy. I'm not wishing to get a reputation as a Fiat Apologist but I just wonder if you've inadvertently taken the transmission beyond its reasonable design capability. You talk about reversing up a "steep hill in the mountains" but haven't commented on how heavily the 'van was load at the time and how that weight was distributed. Although a different problem I think there are similarities here with "torque steering" (well covered in other threads) which is caused when front wheel drive vans, overloaded at the rear, are attemping to apply forward traction. Some of the "hills" in "mountains" are much steeper than the eye would suggest and in these circumstances the weight transfer to the front end would be very considerable indeed - and all this applied to mechanical parts that are predominantly designed to be going forwards not backwards. Brian K has touched on the fact that commercial vans are rarely loaded to the extent of motorhomes and I just wonder if you've exceeded the design limit. As a general rule I can't imagine that regular reversing up inclines with a full load can be any good for drive shafts, clutches or gearboxes. OK you might argue that Fiat ought to beef everything up to accommodate such eventualities but also remember that we expect them to reduce CO2 emissions and give us more load capacity. One way of delivering all that is to shave grams from components. Vernon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marka Posted January 18, 2008 Share Posted January 18, 2008 Andy We purchased a Dethleffs Advantage (Fiat 2.3) in May 2007. From new, we have experienced juddering when reversing. Even when trying to reverse up a slight incline the juddering is very pronounced and gets steadily worse the greater the incline. The only way to over come the problem is to apply more power and fully release the clutch. However the van then becomes difficult to control, as the road speed increases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred grant Posted January 18, 2008 Share Posted January 18, 2008 AndyStothert - 2008-01-17 12:57 PM As many of you will probably know I bought a new Fiat camper in May 2007 and it is suffering from the seemingly endemic juddering in the transmission penberthys off from heathro on sunday - bloody glad fiat don make planes he says flyingfred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted January 18, 2008 Share Posted January 18, 2008 I have reversed a lightly loaded Citroen MWB up a steep drive several times and not noticed anything amiss, so it may be the loaded nature of a motorhome that causes it, as Fiat lauded the fact van had been designed with motorhomes in mind this is no excuse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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