Leisure batteries on way out?

[smifee]

I've had 4 Elecsol 125Ah batteries for 9 years. They have been checked and topped up regularly.

 

Last 2 checks one cell has been almost dry. Now the charging voltage never drops below 14.3v whereas it used to settle at 13.8v when the van wasn't used for a while.

 

Does this mean they are on their way out?

 

Not bothered about getting them tested as I think I've had a good run with them. Just want to know if my reasoning about the charging rate makes sense.

[RogerC]

I would suggest that having had an almost dry cell and considering their age they are knackered to put it in 'garage' terms.  The best way is to get your local battery supplier/depot to check them for you.  They usually do it free of charge.............no pun intended.

[docted]

Smiffee best to stop charging them if they are overcharging there is a risk of them boiling over and spraying battery acid, not a nice thing to be beside plus the smell can linger.

[spospe]

smifee - 2014-02-13 1:53 PM

 

Just want to know if my reasoning about the charging rate makes sense.

 

It makes good sense to me. A high constant charge equals a failing battery. You have had a good run at nine years of use.

[Clive]

Elecsol are no longer trading.

After 9 years you have managed to make what appear to be re-badged starter batteries last a long time.

Replace with either Trojan or the better range from Banner.

If you have a pair to replace then get two 6 volt units and connect them in series.

 

Clive

 

[Brambles]

Clive - 2014-02-15 12:12 PM

 

Elecsol are no longer trading.

After 9 years you have managed to make what appear to be re-badged starter batteries last a long time.

Replace with either Trojan or the better range from Banner.

If you have a pair to replace then get two 6 volt units and connect them in series.

 

Clive

 

If you go the trojan 6 volt route you may need to also fit a venting kits to the batteries if not fitted in an external locker and well ventilated for batteries without integral vent tube fitted. Also they will be physically a lot taller so may not fit in. Also clamping arrangement may be different to hold in place and most certainly will need modifying.

[smifee]

Thanks for the advice.

 

I am leaving batteries connected and charging, from solar panels & Sterling B2B, but monitoring daily.

 

Replacements will depend more on dimensions than efficiency as they have to fit into the same place as the old ones. This will also avoid having to have new cabling. They are fitted in the 'garage' so ventilation is no problem.

 

I am looking at 4 Powermax 135s. Any comments?

[Frank McAuley]

Clive - 2014-02-15 12:12 PM

 

Elecsol are no longer trading.

After 9 years you have managed to make what appear to be re-badged starter batteries last a long time.

Replace with either Trojan or the better range from Banner.

If you have a pair to replace then get two 6 volt units and connect them in series.

 

Clive

Hi Clive

Ihave 2 failed 110AH batteries and am just about to order 2 Banner Energy Bull (95751) BUT your advice re 6 volt batteries in series as opposed to two 12v batteries has me puzzled. I understand that this would provide 12 volts but would the two 12 v batteries not be a better bet? Please accept that I do not know the answer to this but I would appreciate a layman's explanation - is it because of expense?

[RogerC]

smifee - 2014-02-16 12:21 PMThanks for the advice.I am leaving batteries connected and charging, from solar panels & Sterling B2B, but monitoring daily.Replacements will depend more on dimensions than efficiency as they have to fit into the same place as the old ones. This will also avoid having to have new cabling. They are fitted in the 'garage' so ventilation is no problem.I am looking at 4 Powermax 135s. Any comments?

 

Ventilation in the case of batteries isn't simply a matter of what one would normally consider 'ventilation'.  If I remember correctly batteries give off hydrogen gas when under charge which needs to be 'vented'.  If this 'vents' into your garage you are allowing a build up of gas which, in sufficient concentration and a 'spark' could result in a big bang with acid going all over the place.  Although with a battery explosion in the garage there wouldn't be much of it left.

 

If the battery plates are damaged it will give off hydrogen sulfide gas which is equally as unpleasant.....dangerous..............even deadly given the right concentration.

 

[Brambles]

.

[smifee]

RogerC - 2014-02-16 1:38 PMIf the battery plates are damaged it will give off hydrogen sulfide gas which is equally as unpleasant.....dangerous..............even deadly given the right concentration.

That's why I have been checking daily. As well as being dangerous it's also smelly.However the charge has now dropped to the 13.8v maintenance rate.I now think that they are coming to the end of their life but aren't dead yet. I am thinking that the high charge for 6 days was due to the amount of top up used. Will now check the battery, with the cell that has been almost dry, once a week intending to replace them when next top up is necessary.

[Brambles]

Smiffee, take it as a serious warning. If you have a faulty battery and continue to leave on charge you risk an accident. Checking every day just means if an accident happens you discover it earlier than you would have done otherwise, but is still too late when acid is thrown everywhere. At least disconnect the faulty battery - the one which has the cell that keeps needing topped up. As you will be replacing, might as well disconnect all of them.

 

Secondly, having in garage just means you have a much larger area to go bang should the hydrogen gas explode, so instead of a locker going bang, you have a garage which goes BOOM. I am being serious. Unless they are in an external locker with amble ventilation and drop out vents then you MUST fit venting tubes. I recall failing an inspection on a battery locker as it had TOO much free space. Ventilation was adequate but volume was too great so vents would not purge air completely fast enough. Solution was simple; we fitted a second battery to fill the space and stuck a label on saying "Both batteries must be installed before use". Even though twice the hydrogen potentially was being generated the venting was now adequate for remaining volume.

 

 

Re 6 volt batteries. By fitting two in series you can use two, say 200 Ah 6V batteries which in series gives you 200 Ah @ 12v. (Two 100 Ah in parallel gives you 200Ah in total at 12v), so no difference in total capacity. However it means your 6 cells (3 per battery) should all remain in balance when charged and remain balanced. However this does mean both batteries MUST be balanced for characteristics to begin with. Preferably from the same manufactured batch. The perceived wisdom is you never get the mismatch you can get with batteries in parallel. This is important when drawing very heavy currents, but realistically is not an issue when drawing low currents which really is how we use them. If you were say powering a microwave a lot then it could be of benefit. Or for example using as starter batteries. If the batteries are not matched then you are better with them in parallel for normal loads.

As I mentioned before dimensions of 6 volt Trojans is an issue and as you said it is easier to replace like for like. The BIG advantage with two 12 volt batteries in parallel is if one battery goes faulty you can disconnect and continue using the other. This to many, is a big plus.

The down side with too many 12 volt batteries in parallel is if one gets a shorted cell, then say you have a total of 4 batteries, then the 3 other batteries can discharge their energy into that one faulty battery.

Batteries will normally be fine coping with one other battery discharging into it, but not more. So in this case if you require equivalent of 4 batteries you should buy two much larger batteries or you could buy four 6 volt batteries connect two pairs in series and then two pairs in parallel keeping to the rule a set of faulty batteries can cope with one more set discharging through it, so this is why 6 volt batteries are useful when configuring battery sets. If using more than two in parallel then serious thought needs to be given to monitoring systems such as thermal temperature triggered fuses monitoring battery temperature.

I maybe should have mentioned earlier one battery discharging into a faulty one will not raise its temperature dangerously high, but two batteries of equal size discharging into a third can. Hence when pairing batteries in parallel the recommendation is to have no more than one size difference. E.g. you can pair a 110Ah with a 90Ah but not a 110 with a 75 as the 75Ah could be overheated by the 110Ah in the case of a fault.

In monitored systems there is no reason not to fit a 110 with a 20Ah perfectly safely and no adverse effect in battery life.

 

6volt batteries have their uses in large battery banks. They are not really required for most people and we can get 12 volt batteries which are perfectly good for parallel connection with very little compromise and indeed a benefit should one fail. It also means should one fail prematurely due to say a manufacturing fault then you can put a new one in with the old one. Not ideal but can be done and certainly within a year or two. With 6 volts if one is only slightly aged then you must replace both as MUST remain in balance or you risk overcharging one of them or even reverse charging it should you discharge too much, unless you have monitoring of each 6 volt battery. So 6 volts batteries do have their drawbacks in our simple motorhomes with very little pluses to be honest except some very good deep cycle batteries are available in 6 volt versions. As mention height may be a problem of course and also the additional height leads to another issue. We may have long predicted life, but stratifying of the acid when left stationary for long periods can be an issue unless given an equalisation charge to make them gas and mix the acid. With lower profile batteries such as the 12 volt batteries this is not so much of an issue. On a boat it is less of an issue as when stored it is likely the boat is floating in a marina and constantly rocking about a little.

 

I would look seriously at if you actually require 400Ah plus, as you seem to have coped with 4 Elecsols which probably were well down on capacity the last few years. So maybe 200 Ah is more than enough. If going for 400 Ah, look at using 2 much larger batteries.

 

[Brambles]

smifee - 2014-02-16 7:16 PM

RogerC - 2014-02-16 1:38 PMIf the battery plates are damaged it will give off hydrogen sulfide gas which is equally as unpleasant.....dangerous..............even deadly given the right concentration.

That's why I have been checking daily. As well as being dangerous it's also smelly.However the charge has now dropped to the 13.8v maintenance rate.I now think that they are coming to the end of their life but aren't dead yet. I am thinking that the high charge for 6 days was due to the amount of top up used. Will now check the battery, with the cell that has been almost dry, once a week intending to replace them when next top up is necessary.

For Gawd's sake Smiffee, You are dicing with an accident here. You have 4 batteries in parallel reached the end of their life sitting in , what a 50K motorhome. Thats is the height of stupidity and is not an opinion but fact. Please trust what others and myself are saying.All it takes is one cell to short from buckling plates and you risk an explosion. It DOES happen more frequently than you may like to believe.

[RogerC]

Smiffe...without trying to 'soften the blow'.....you are literally dicing with the possibility of death..or serious acid burns and real fire (explosion) burns doing what you are.  You say it smells....like rotten eggs I bet.  It indicates your batteries are 'dead' and if you continue they way you are you might be as well.

 

You're messing around trying to get a few more days/weeks/months out of dead batteries for the sake of what?   A few £'s? .....You're being a silly sod in my opinion because if they do go 'up' your motorhome will be scrap!!! Although if you are around it when it does go 'BANG' that will be the least of your worries.

 

Please take the advice given here in the way intended..........sincerely and for your guidance.......and more importantly your health.  Get them off charge......get rid and buy new ones.

 

Oh and when you take the charge connections off PLEASE make sure the charger is off first, the 'garage' is properly ventilated and leave the batteries for a good few hours before undoing the connections/clips.  Gassing continues well after the charging stops and is 'explosive'..........

 

[Frank McAuley]

Evening Brambles

Taking cognizance of your advice re 12 -v - 6 volt I think I'll go ahead with the 2 12 v Banner . I don't know if your familiar with the external battery compartment of a an ATrail's Delaware but if you are would I need the

Vent tubes for both batteries?

It's tremendous to get such advice as you have included here! Thank you.

[Brambles]

Frank McAuley - 2014-02-16 8:32 PM

 

Evening Brambles

Taking cognizance of your advice re 12 -v - 6 volt I think I'll go ahead with the 2 12 v Banner . I don't know if your familiar with the external battery compartment of a an ATrail's Delaware but if you are would I need the

Vent tubes for both batteries?

It's tremendous to get such advice as you have included here! Thank you.

 

Shall catch up and answer after I watch Dragon's Den.

[Brambles]

I am not familiar with the external battery locker, but even with adequate vents it is never a bad idea to fit vent tubes. Reason being that batteries can drip condensate from the vent holes, they should not as designed not to but can happen under certain circumstances. Also any gases expelled do contain a certain amount of acid vapour which is corrosive. By fitting tubes and routing to below the vehicle you have eliminates any acid being expelled and collecting on what is probably a galvanised steel tray and eating its way merrily through it. Tubes (small bore PVC) and an adapter for the battery vent hole are pennies. You can link the batteries with a tube each going to a Y or T joiner and then a single tube out, or you take one battery tube t a T plugged into 2nd and a tube out, or indeed link one battery with a tube to the 2nd battery and then from other end of that battery take a tube to the outside world. I am not so keen on last method and not even sure if it is a recommended method or not, which is why I am not so keen.

Anyway, Think I have answered your question by defaulting to if in doubt fit tubes as so cheap. Just make sure you put a plug in the vent hole not used on a battery. The battery if supplied mail order should come with the vent caps fitted and is also readily available from any battery supplier, take off your old batteries or whatever. PVC tube you will pick up on many hardware stores and indeed battery suppliers should have tubing as well.

 

 

[smifee]

Calm down fellas :-D

 

There is no smell.

 

The batteries are fitted with a temperature sensor and are not overheating.

 

The charge has returned to the maintenance rate.

[Frank McAuley]

Thanks Brambles.

[BrianBW]

Blimey!! What sort of van have you got with 4 Batteries. There's an awful lot of weight there.

[Brian Kirby]

BrianBW - 2014-02-20 5:14 PM

 

Blimey!! What sort of van have you got with 4 Batteries. There's an awful lot of weight there.

It's based on a milk-float. Leisurely touring, very quiet, but costs a fortune to re-charge! :-)

[smifee]

I've been away in the van for 4 days. Batteries performing as usual including about 6 hours of inverter use.

 

No drop in level of the 'iffy' cell.

 

So I'm assuming they need replacing and the high charging for 6 days was down to the large amount of top up used.

 

Any views on my intended replacements :- 4 x Powermax 135 ?

 

 

[smifee]

BrianBW - 2014-02-20 5:14 PM

 

Blimey!! What sort of van have you got with 4 Batteries. There's an awful lot of weight there.

 

It's a Hymer 'C' class.

 

When I got the van, 9 years ago, I wanted to spend 2 - 3 months in France and/or Portugal without using campsites. I use a lot of mains powered things:- TV, bread maker, toaster, laptop, washing machine, spin dryer vacuum and steam cleaners, etc. So the inverter is wired to provide 240v in all the main sockets at the press of a button.

 

I don't bother to plug in to hook up on aires even when it's free. :-D

 

Haven't run out of power YET.

[Brambles]

Re going for 4 power max batteries, these are dual purpose batteries so not the perfect choice. However I do not know much about them except looks very much like a Dynamic imported leisure battery so is probably made in South Africa. Willard Batteries comes to mind but I think the name I want is quite different as part of a larger group ....I need to research it to remind myself. For a 135Ah battery it is a bit lightweight at 35Kg

 

If you are buying 4 batteries it is probbaly worth researching a bit deeper as its a lot of money and its appears you are quite power hungry. Surpising if the Elecsols have lasted so well.

 

Varta are worth taking a look at for higher power batteries with low water consumption. Look at this

http://www.tayna.co.uk/96002-Varta-Leisure-Battery-H12-P8689.html as a possibility but also look at Trojan and even going the 6 volt route. It may be worth forgetting centralised venting and fitting a venting kit. Banner of course is another posiibility. If going for Varta look at the DIN number and make sure it starts with a 9 and not an 8. Damn Varta for dropping so many from their range which were ideal a few years ago..

 

I mention the 6 volt route again because you seem to want 400Ah or more. I would stick to two large capacity batteries or 2 pairs of 6 volts for reasons mentioned in earlier posts.

 

Really all I am saying is why fit 4 standard quality middle of the road batteries with a 2 year warranty ( tells you a lot does it not) which are not ideally suited to your application when you can fit premium quality more suited to deep cycling.

I personally would probably go for 2 x 180Ah varta or larger if I could find them and fit a venting kit, or 6 volt Trojans for such an application, as Clive as suggested, again fiting venting kits. Also look at Exide as they also do deep cycle batteries similar to the Trojans. You are talking serouis power if you were not jesting about toasters, spinners and m/h type washing machines.

 

The vartas will consume less water than the other deep cyle batteries which is a big plus. The dual purpose type batteries such as the powermax will consume less as well but also have less cycle life.

Time to sit down and work out what capacity you actually use.

 

 

 

[Frank McAuley]

Morning Brambles

Re my previous and my decision to use 110 AH BANNER ENERGY BULL they're like gold dust! In your last contribution you refer to VARTRA - which I can get so are they worthy replacement?