Leisure Battery choice and usage on holiday.

[Solomongrundy]

Two Banner Energy Bull 110ah batteries at £100 each or two Varta Silver Dynamic 100ah at £85 each - are the Banner batteries that much better to justify an extra £30?

 

When we go to France for a week over the New Year holiday we will use the Aires.

 

We expect it to be cold and the gas-fired Combi 6 heating will be on from around 5 pm each day and probably an hour or two early in the morning.

 

We will have showers each day, hot water for washing ourselves and washing the pots, plenty of boiled kettles for tea making and around 6 – 8 Led lights on at night – we don't have or want a television and the radio will run off the engine battery.

 

We will be driving at least 50 – 100 miles each day.

 

With the two batteries capacities (200ah or 220ah) and an 80w Solar panel, which won't put very much into the system, do you think we could survive without EHU for a week or would a visit to an EHU point be a good idea after a few days?

 

How long is a piece of string?

[Tracker]

Assuming having left home with fully charged batteries and kept them full on the drive to the first night in France, if you then drive say 50 miles one day and 100 miles the next that means that the engine will be running for say 90 minutes one day and say 3 hours at least the next day?

 

An hour's charge at a starting rate of say 10 amps dropping to say 5 amps means you can expect to put say 8 - 10 ah per hour of daily engine running back into the batteries when added to the unknown daily charge from the solar panel.

 

On that basis an average of say 20 ah per day should be enough to keep you going but if you do get the chance to obtain extra charging from an Aire EHU it is probably worth taking the opportunity.

 

Tough choice regarding batteries but personally I see it differently than just an extra £30.

Divide the £30 by the number of of EHU nights that you expect to get during the life of the battery and then factor in an allowance for having the theoretical benefit of at least an extra day's worth of battery capacity and £30 may not seem so bad after all!

[hallii]

You will be fine. I do have a bit more solar input than you but much the same otherwise. Many Aires have electric hookup so you can recharge if you need to for a couple of hours.

 

After many years and quite a few batteries of various makes I now prefer Varta every time. Bosch are the same, badge engineering.

 

Nothing wrong with Banner batteries, but I just prefer Varta. Tayna batteries list a load of Varta Leisure batteries.

 

H

 

 

[StuartO]

If you don't use a TV the electric blower from your heater will perhaps be the principal power demand and could be as much as a TV, so you could be drawing 3 amps or more while parked up.

 

Driving only 50-100 miles per day is unlikely to top up your batteries purely from your engine's alternator and in winter your solar panels might not deliver all that much. But you never know - as long as there is good daylight even if not sunshine, your solar panel should make a useful contribution. With 200 AH if you start fully charged you probably can survive for a good few days without an EHU anyway.

 

Some Aires provide electricity of course and All the Aires tells you which ones. Sometimes they offer unmetered and free hook up, although it might be on a shared basis. If you monitor the power drain and battery status as you go, it might be possible to anticipate when you really are going to need an EHU for a charge so you can choose your Aires accordingly.

 

Remember that you can only use about half of the nominal capacity of your leisure batteries, so use 100 AH as your full charge resource, so about 30 hours at 3 amps, maybe a bit more. If you are only driving for 3 or 4 hours per day and having the heating and lighting on for 7 or 8 (and not overnight) then you have about 4 night's capacity, plus whatever your driving/solar panel puts back in.

[StuartO]

Forgot to add thatI would go for Varta Silver too. They are new technology, same as Bosch S5, and are designed to cope with repeated discharges and recharges of this type.

[Guest Joe90]

The OP doesn't mention what arrangements or capacity he has for gas, or the type of heater he has, I might be a cold arse, but at this time of year even though we have an allegedly winterized and well insulated van we have the gas blow air heating running on a low setting all night, and most of the day when not on the road,and of course these stupid Truma blow air units need battery power, if he's got a convector type so much the better, even better if combined with a refillable gas system, but even so I'd be heading for somewhere with EHU, although being France could well be a low amperage even so the addition of a small electric fan heater could be the difference between a enjoyable time, or a miserable one. As for Aires with electric, yes they are about, but few and far between in my experience, then lots of caveats, low amperage, does it work, it will be time restricted per Euro/ Jetton if it's that type of bourne, can you get plugged in if other vans are hogging it, as the OP said, how long is a piece of string, I'm rambling on, but I hope I've given him some food for thought.................I'll resist the urge to talk about water and plumbing issues that may arise if it's particularly cold ;-)

 

P.S, loads of hookups at Honfleur as long as you don't mind being parked on a vast car park, and I think it's now gone up to 10 Euros a night ! !

[rupert123]

The Varta is not really a leisure battery but I have been using one for twelve months now on a recommendation and it has been very good. I only have one 100ah battery and it will last three nights without moving so fine for me as I would never go longer than this without a decent run to charge it or hookup, five year warranty as well. Buying a specialist leisure battery these days would appear to be a waste of money as several starter batteries have similar technology.

[Derek Uzzell]

The Varta “Silver Dynamic” range (and Bosch’s S3-S4-S5 range) comprises maintenance-free, wet-acid batteries that should be fitted with a vent tube. Banner’s “Energy Bull” range comprises wet-acid batteries that can be topped up and should also be fitted with a vent-tube.

 

However, it should be apparent from the companies' advertising literature and the technical specifications that Energy Bull batteries are marketed specifically for ‘leisure’ purposes

 

http://www.bannerbatterien.com/banner/produkte/batterien/energy_bull/energy_bull/index2_en.php

 

whereas the Varta and Bosch batteries are marketed for engine starting

 

http://www.varta-batteries.co.uk/varta-silver.html

 

http://rb-aa.bosch.com/aa-batterien/gb/en/pkw/bat_s345.htm

 

While there’s no doubt that a starter-battery with a reasonable Ah capacity can (as rupert123 has found) be adequate for ‘leisure’ purposes in a motorcaravan if treated sympathetically and usage is relatively light, it nevertheless begs the question as to why one would deliberately choose a pair of Silver Dynamic starter-batteries over a pair of not much more expensive Energy Bull leisure batteries when independent tests have indicated that the Banner product shold be superior for the purpose envisaged (ie. staying off-site for a week in cold weather in a motorhome with a 12V power-hungry heater.)

 

Varta markets the “Professional Dual Purpose” range

 

http://www.varta-automotive.com/en-gb/products/leisure/professional-dual-purpose/

 

and a 90Ah battery should cost around £90 and be more appropriate for motorcaravan ‘leisure’ purposes. These batteries are still designed to have an engine-starting capability, so it still needs to be asked why one would choose them in preference to the Banner Energy Bull range when an engine-starting requirement is not needed.

 

(Incidentally, there does not seem to be a 110Ah battery in Banner’s Energy Bull range. Banner advertises the capacity using (K20) Ah. There’s a 100Ah (Ref 95751) and a 115Ah version (Ref 95901), but nothing in between. In view of the £100 price quoted in the original posting, it’s likely that the 95751 version was being referred to.)

[colin]

You should have no problems at all, you may find the solar puts a lot more into the system than you think.

[StuartO]

Derek I think you might be missing the point that the Varta Silver and Bosch S5 batteries are a new type designed for stop/start engine batteries (i.e. engnes which stop as the vehcle stops and self-start as you accelerate from the halt) so they have a capacity for discharge/reharge cycles which is much better than ordinary starter batteries.

 

Hence they can also serve as a leisure battery in a MH and, mainly because they are made in high volume for a bigger market, are cheaper than other leisure battery types. They are much cheaper than the Exide Gel leisure batteries which my Hymer came with - less than half the price. I plan to give them a go when mine need replacing.

[lennyhb]

From what I've read about the Varta they would be my first choice.

 

Truma Comi's are not very power hungry, they take 5-6 amps when running flat out but once the van is up to temp they take less than an amp.

As you are not using a TV, Rich's estimate of 20 a/h is probably about right although he may be a bit optimistic of the charge you will get from driving, depends on your charging system. If your van has an Elektroblock you will get a higher charge when driving than if it has a standard split charge relay system.

Although it is not recommended that a wet cell battery is discharged below 50% to ensure long life, it can be done occasionally without doing any damage, the Varta would stand up better than the Banner in this situation.

The Solar panel won't do much this time of year, if lucky you may get 4 or 5 a/h on a bight sunny day.

 

As your Combi will running for heating no need to boil kettles you get hot water as a by product without any extra power or gas consumption, rarely ever use the hot water setting on the Combi in spring/winter/autumn in our van and we both have daily showers.

 

I think you will last the week easily, just monitor your battery voltage (off load) so you can foresee any emergency before it happens.

 

[Sophie2]

StuartO - 2014-12-05 10:02 AM

 

Derek I think you might be missing the point that the Varta Silver and Bosch S5 batteries are a new type designed for stop/start engine batteries (i.e. engnes which stop as the vehcle stops and self-start as you accelerate from the halt) so they have a capacity for discharge/reharge cycles which is much better than ordinary starter batteries.

 

Hence they can also serve as a leisure battery in a MH and, mainly because they are made in high volume for a bigger market, are cheaper than other leisure battery types. They are much cheaper than the Exide Gel leisure batteries which my Hymer came with - less than half the price. I plan to give them a go when mine need replacing.

 

Interesting. We've got exide AGM Stop/Start on ours (2 x 95ah) One already fitted from new purchase of vehicle. The other a few months later.

[rupert123]

Derek Uzzell - 2014-12-05 8:17 AM

 

The Varta “Silver Dynamic” range (and Bosch’s S3-S4-S5 range) comprises maintenance-free, wet-acid batteries that should be fitted with a vent tube. Banner’s “Energy Bull” range comprises wet-acid batteries that can be topped up and should also be fitted with a vent-tube.

 

However, it should be apparent from the companies' advertising literature and the technical specifications that Energy Bull batteries are marketed specifically for ‘leisure’ purposes

 

http://www.bannerbatterien.com/banner/produkte/batterien/energy_bull/energy_bull/index2_en.php

 

whereas the Varta and Bosch batteries are marketed for engine starting

 

http://www.varta-batteries.co.uk/varta-silver.html

 

http://rb-aa.bosch.com/aa-batterien/gb/en/pkw/bat_s345.htm

 

While there’s no doubt that a starter-battery with a reasonable Ah capacity can (as rupert123 has found) be adequate for ‘leisure’ purposes in a motorcaravan if treated sympathetically and usage is relatively light, it nevertheless begs the question as to why one would deliberately choose a pair of Silver Dynamic starter-batteries over a pair of not much more expensive Energy Bull leisure batteries when independent tests have indicated that the Banner product shold be superior for the purpose envisaged (ie. staying off-site for a week in cold weather in a motorhome with a 12V power-hungry heater.)

 

Varta markets the “Professional Dual Purpose” range

 

http://www.varta-automotive.com/en-gb/products/leisure/professional-dual-purpose/

 

and a 90Ah battery should cost around £90 and be more appropriate for motorcaravan ‘leisure’ purposes. These batteries are still designed to have an engine-starting capability, so it still needs to be asked why one would choose them in preference to the Banner Energy Bull range when an engine-starting requirement is not needed.

 

(Incidentally, there does not seem to be a 110Ah battery in Banner’s Energy Bull range. Banner advertises the capacity using (K20) Ah. There’s a 100Ah (Ref 95751) and a 115Ah version (Ref 95901), but nothing in between. In view of the £100 price quoted in the original posting, it’s likely that the 95751 version was being referred to.)

Derek the Varta is completely sealed and does not need a vent tube and is not just 'adequate'. These batteries are as good or better than most leisure batteries these days with longer warranty as well.

[Guest Joe90]

I wonder just how good these battery warranties are, our current M/home had a new Bosch Silver with 5 year warranty that was fitted just before we took ownership of the van. The previous owner had left us with the receipt, at 10 months old it failed, neither Bosch or the supplier wanted to know as we were not the original purchaser, it was in the small print apparently, together with the other few thousand words of get out of jail free for them............................ :-(

[lennyhb]

A fact of life with a lot of warranties, a bit surprised that Bosch wouldn't honour it. What did you replace it with and hows that holding up? Do you think the old one failed as it had been it left discharged for too long while sitting at the dealers?

 

[Derek Uzzell]

Neither Varta’s “Silver Dynamic” nor Bosch’s “S3-S4-S5 ranges are "new type designed for stop/start engine batteries” - they are conventional wet-acid starter batteries. The Varta and Bosch ranges marketed with ‘start/stop’ vehicles particularly in mind are, respectively, “Silver Dynamic AGM” and “S6 AGM”

 

http://www.varta-automotive.com/en-gb/products/automotive/silver-dynamic/

 

http://de.bosch-automotive.com/en/parts/parts_and_accessories/service_parts_1/batteries_4/s6_agm_1/s6_agm_1

 

Regarding the Varta products, I pointed this out in August (though it’s evident I might as well have not bothered!)

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Battery-replacement-conundrum/35682/#M430081

 

Given the £85 per battery quoted, Solomongrundy undoubtedly must have been referring to the standard (non-AGM) “Silver Dynamic” range, as the AGM version is a lot more expensive. It’s possible Varta’s use of “Silver Dynamic” for normal wet-acid and AGM batteries has caused misunderstandings as I note that the AGM version has been renamed “Stop-Start (AGM TEchnology) Plus”. A 95Ah example is shown here

 

http://www.tayna.co.uk/G14-Varta-Start-Stop-Plus-AGM-Car-Battery-595901085-P8424.html

 

I don’t know if rupert123’s battery is a “Silver Dynamic” or a “Silver Dynamic AGM”. The latter type will be maintenance-free and will have no facility (as far as I’m aware) to take a vent-tube. The former type (the cheapie) will also be maintenance-free (ie. its electrolyte cannot be topped up) but has the facility to take a vent-tube. If a battery can accept a vent-tube it makes sense to fit one, particularly if the battery is installed in a motorhome’s living area. My Hobby carried its starter battery beneath the driver’s seat and, when I replaced the original battery with a Varta “Silver Dynamic” (non-AGM) one, I transferred the vent-tube to the new battery.

 

Rupert123’s comments that "These batteries are as good or better than most leisure batteries these days with longer warranty as well.” Although the warranty period for a Varta “Silver Dynamic”” battery is long, it’s still a starter-battery. If it’s to be claimed that an £85 Varta starter-battery is as good or better than a Banner “Energy Bull” battery marketed specifically for ‘leisure’ use (and that independent testing has indicated has an appropriate deep-cycle technical specification and construction), I’d be interested to know what evidence there is to support that claim.

 

Lennyhb says "Although it is not recommended that a wet cell battery is discharged below 50% to ensure long life, it can be done occasionally without doing any damage, the Varta would stand up better than the Banner in this situation.”

 

As the £85 Varta and £100 Banner batteries are both wet-acid type, with the Varta being a starter-battery while the Banner is intended to handle deep-cycling usage, surely the reverse should be true?

[Solomongrundy]

Thanks for all the helpful replies.

 

I was undecided between the two makes of batteries because the Banner, although dearer, is from a nearby outlet and if anything went wrong with it I could take it back and sort it out face-to-face.

The cheaper Varta would be delivered by post from somewhere 100 miles away and therefore harder to get a result if there was a problem.

 

There does seem a difference of opinion in your replies as to which would be the better option and I think I'll go with the Banner batteries and, in time, let you know how I get on with them.

 

We will use a campsite if we get desperate for hook-up and there are plenty of all-year-round sites in Northern France.

 

We have 'done' France in the Winter before and it holds very few problems for us except the lack of EHU at that time of year.

 

We have a Gaslow system and, as I mentioned in my post, a Combi 6 heater which uses a fair bit of gas although it is easily topped up while in France.

 

We tend to meander about without any set plan other than making sure we are close to a Boulangerie each morning for the baguette, pain au chocolat and croissants.

 

Sorry for the delay in replying but our dogs epileptic fitting yesterday took up most of my day and thoughts.

[Derek Uzzell]

I believe most long-term forum members would agree that this forum’s resident guru regarding batteries is “Brambles”.

 

He provides valuable (and expert) guidance on leisure-battery selection in his posting of 28 November 2013 2:31 AM of this 2013 discussion

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Leisure-batteries-a-waste-of-money-/33263/31/

 

 

[Tracker]

Given the varying experiences of leisure battery life from forum members in general there would seem to be nearly as much difference between samples of the same battery as there is between brands?

 

As you are buying local take your digital multimeter along with you to check the voltage of the batteries you are being offered and try to find two that are similar in voltage and preferably showing at least 12.6 volts.

 

It is unlikely they will have been charged whilst in stock by the retailer which gives you a reasonable chance of getting two decent ones.

[Brian Kirby]

There is (was?) a simple rule of thumb when choosing leisure batteries. First make sure the capacity of the batteries in A/h is comparable, manufacturers frequently exaggerate the capacity of their batteries by declaring their capacity at very low discharge rates. Also make sure both are of the same type: flooded, AGM, or gel.

 

I'm not competent to advise which discharge rate is preferable when trying to assess the true capacity, but am aware that if each is quoting a different rate, the one using the lower rate will have less capacity "in the field" than the one quoted at the higer rate. As Derek says, Jon (Brambles) is the main source of expert guidance on this.

 

Then, once you are satisfied that both batteries are singing from the same hymn sheet, and are of comparable real world capacities, compare their weights. Leisure batteries require thicker lead plates than starter batteries, and so weigh more. The rule of thumb then says, for the same true capacity in A/h, the heavier battery (providing it is from a reputable manufacturer), will be the better buy.

[Tracker]

But don't be entirely convinced by weight as the casing material itself is very dense and heavy and I seem to recall reading in a test report that some makers allegedly use very thick casings!

[Derek Uzzell]

If weight is to be used to try to identify whether a battery being marketed for ‘leisure’ purposes is really a re-branded starter battery, the physical dimensions of the battery (rather than its claimed Ah capacity) need to be taken into account.

 

Looking at batteries with dimensions of 354mm(length) x 175mm(width) x 190mm(high) (ie. with the same size casing) in the Banner ranges, the quoted weights are as follows:

 

Energy Bull – 24kg

Running Bull (AGM) – 27kg

Power Bull – 24kg

Starting Bull – 23kg

 

(It needs noting, however, that Banner quotes these figures +/-5%.)

 

Varta-provided weights for batteries in their ranges with 353 x 175 x 190 dimensions are as follows

 

Silver Dynamic (AGM) – 26.4kg

Professional Dual Purpose – 24.6kg

Silver Dynamic – 21.92kg

 

It seems, then, that AGM batteries should be expected to weigh more than conventional wet-acid type. But simply using weight as an arbiter for battery-type seems questionable. It does need saying though that Banner and Varta are reputable manufacturers that take care to identify in their advertising the particular usage that each range of batteries is intended for, and don’t advertise starter-batteries as ‘leisure’ batteries.

 

If it were found, say, that a 353 x 175 x 190 battery being marketed as a ‘leisure’ battery were unusually light (eg. 20kg) there’d be little doubt that it was a starter-battery in disguise (and probably not a good one), but otherwise using battery-weight as a guide to the battery-type and/or its potential performance must be considered a very blunt instrument.

 

(Incidentally, previous forum discussions suggest that the vent-tube outlet of Banner batteries may differ from the norm. Vent-tubes can be obtained from suppliers of Banner batteries, but it may be possible to DIY adapt a standard vent-tube’s end-fitting to the Banner outlet (or vice versa) if an existing vent-tube won’t fit.)

[Guest Joe90]

It's like wading through treacle whenever this subject crops up, maybe I'm wrong but I always look at the claimed amount of charge / discharge cycles, although how reliable that is as an indicator of quality I've no idea, and if that information isn't given wouldn't inspire me with confidence.

[StuartO]

Derek, have you read this:

 

http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/battery-technology.php

 

I appreciate it's merely another opinion, but I found it fairly cinvincing.

[Tracker]

Joe90 - 2014-12-07 10:32 AM

 

It's like wading through treacle whenever this subject crops up, maybe I'm wrong but I always look at the claimed amount of charge / discharge cycles, although how reliable that is as an indicator of quality I've no idea, and if that information isn't given wouldn't inspire me with confidence.

 

A bit of treacle wading is always good exercise for the mind - especially when it saves money and the aggravation of an early battery failure caused by buying the wrong batteries, and I am always grateful for the various points of view posted by all contributors who take the time and trouble.