Gas Attacks ?

[antony1969]

A european tour is planned next year and like everybody else I have heard tales of gas attacks . I have not met anyone who has personally had or heard of anybody else involved with a gas attack but would appreciate any comment on this . My last question seemed to trigger a heated debate so am hoping this does not put off any potential replies , thanks .

[Mel B]

I hope you have a flak jacket and helmet to hand ... better yet trade in your motorhome for a tank ... you might need it!!!! :D

 

You really know what threads to place to get some very hot answers ....

 

To get to the point of your questions though:

 

There is plenty of 'hearsay' that this has happened, there have even been some insurance claims based on it, and some people are absolutely convinced that it has happened to them. Where there hasn't been, so far as I'm aware, is any proof of it.

 

The general consensus seem to be that it would seem to be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to be able to 'gas' someone in a large space such as a motorhome by pumping in gas without blowing the thing up as the fridge pilot light would ignite the gas. Some seem to think that people could be gassed if someone sneaked into the motorhome and then gassed them close up, ie under their noses, again, this has not been shown to be true as far as I'm aware.

 

What has happened, though, is that people have slept soundly through break-ins and, as they have not woken up, as believe they would have done, they some have assumed therefore that they have been gassed. Tiredness through travelling, having some vino etc can make people sleep very, very soundly, and this is more likely to be the cause of their not waking.

 

As with all travelling and over-nighting, both on the UK and Europe, common sense about where you park up for the night is the best thing to think about. Get to places in daylight if you can and make sure you feel safe there, if you are worried - move on. If you have an alarm, use it, don't leave things out on display like handbags, laptops etc - put them out of site, so that if you are broken into there is nothing 'easy' for the thief to grab and get away with, even if your alarm does go off.

 

[colin]

I thought there was a 'sticky' on gas attacks, this seems to have disapeared, the general concensus is gas attacks don't appear to happen, but many blame them if they get broken into and don't wake up.

p.s. mel beat me to it.

p.p.s. if it helps you sleep better :D you can buy an (expensive) alarm that alerts you to such types of gas

[Big Momma]

Like lots of users on this forum, I regulary tour Europe for my annual summer holidays and apart from one unfortunate incident on a motorway service aire, have had no problems. The one incident I referred to could have been avoided if I had taken the common sense precautions, however, tiredness and a false sense of security were instrumental in the incident. Since that time I have never made the same mistake again and have had many happy touring adventures. As for the Gas attacks I think that you may find that this is more 'Urban Myth' than fact. As you will probably find repeated time and time again, take usual common sense precautuons and then relax and enjoy your hobby.

[David Dwight]

Antony

 

Speak to Anethatist they will tell you that it is not knocking someone out with a gas that difficult its keeping them alive whilst under thats the tricky part. This is why when you go for an operation in Hospital the Anethatist will ask you all sorts of questions about your health weight etc, these are all relavant as to the amount of gas you will be given, and you are strictly monitored all the time.. An adult will need more gas than a child so if an adult was knocked out a child would possibly be killed.

 

If all these people are gassed in their Motorhomes etc why are there not a lot of unexplained deaths.

 

There has been quite alenghty post on this subject in the past.

 

Just get a decent alarm fitted to your Motorhome this will alert you to a break in also a deterrant to theft.

 

David

[teflon2]

I seem to remember that somewere in the dim and distant past an anethetist replied to this question and their answer was that the quantity of gas required to render unconsious anyone in a motorhome would be so expensive as to make the attack unprofitable as you would need a container large enough to fit on a truck. In theater you have a mask fitted over your face and it takes a few seconds to take effect so with the ventilation in a motorhome I don't think that there is a problem. Lock up securely and fit door alarms and forget it enjoy you trip there is always someone who claims to know someone it happened to but in my touring it's never happened. Have fun John. B-)

[mirage]

Some people simply sleep so deeply they can`t believe somebody has robbed them during the night. I don`t think many thieves drive around with a boot full of Gas even if it did work.

[jhorsf]

buy a canary

[spospe]

Has anyone ever posted on here that they personally have been the victim of a gas attack?

 

I want to hear from a victim, not the relative, friend, acquaintance, guy from the pub, or anyone else: I want to hear from a victim. Remember that what I want is the actual victim, no one else at all will do.

 

Furthermore, I want some evidence: what do you think my chances are?

 

I'm counting .........................

 

 

[Klyne]

I have only heard of one person in all the years I have belonged to various online forums 'Claiming' that they personally had been gased whilst on a motorway service station in France. The party consisted of 2/3 adults and two Great Danes. I am not a dog owner but I imagine their sensory perception is far greater than most humans so I can't imagine that they would not have made a commotion had anyone outside been trying to introduce a gas into the van. After all its going to take a bit more that a squirt from an aerosol to knock out 3 people and two large dogs! I think Mel B's explanation is the more likely truth. What also seems strange to me is that no one is ever taken to hospital after these so called attacks where a blood sample could prove the case!

 

David

[The Decorator]

Oh no !!!!

 

Don't start this thing off again please,

 

You've as much chance being got at with spray can as seeing Father Christmas in pink knickers.

[JohnP]

I think Brian Kirby has a copy of the Anaesthetists letter. Perhaps he will post relevant bits of it again on this thread.

 

There was a long discussion on this topic sometime ago but it appears to have disappered

[Derek Uzzell]

JohnP - 2010-03-15 12:55 AM

 

I think Brian Kirby has a copy of the Anaesthetists letter. Perhaps he will post relevant bits of it again on this thread.

 

There was a long discussion on this topic sometime ago but it appears to have disappered

 

This is a link to the earlier massive 'gas attacks' thread that contains the anaesthetist's advice obtained by Brian Kirby:

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=5565&start=1

 

(The thread is now 'un-stickied', which means it's currently lurking in the part of the forum where the February 2009 'last-posted' stuff lives. There's nothing to stop people posting to the original thread if they so wish, which would yank it up into the present time-frame. On the other hand, they could just read through it and let the matter quietly die.)

[colinfrier]

From what I read it is not feasible to fill a motorhome with gas to render the occupants unconscious but since we here that story so often there may be a grain of truth here.

If someone gains access to your vehicle while you sleep is it possible that they use some sort of gas or ether at close quarters by applying it direct to your mouth and nose while you sleep.

To be safe as possible fit mortice dead locks to all doors.

.

[spospe]

I'm still waiting ................................

[KeithR]

someone i know met someone who had an uncle who saw santa in pink knickers. 8-)

so im buying a canary. :D

[Guest JudgeMental]

For the sceptics amongst us, I have been the victim of a gas attack on many occasions from Mrs Mental after a fierce feed of Guinness and a ruby murry...and on top of that she robs me blind all the time!:-S

[Basil]

JudgeMental - 2010-03-15 10:57 AM

 

For the sceptics amongst us, I have been the victim of a gas attack on many occasions from Mrs Mental after a fierce feed of Guinness and a ruby murry...and on top of that she robs me blind all the time!:-S

 

Very good. :-D :-D :-D I wanted to put something similar but restrained myself in the interest of my safety!!

 

Bas

[The Decorator]

Dutch Ovens comes to mind but most M/H's are designed to allow a free flow of air so there should be no problems there.

[spospe]

KeithR - 2010-03-15 10:35 AM

 

someone i know met someone who had an uncle who saw santa in pink knickers. 8-)

so im buying a canary. :D

 

Exactly so ;-)

[David Dwight]

People have said that there is no evidence after being gassed. Just think anyone that has been to a Hospital will no doubt have noticed a smell as soon as you walk in the door that smell is anasthetic, it take quite sometime for the smell to evaporate, anyone goint into a motorhome several hours after a said attack would notice the smell.

 

Gas is heavier than air so if anyone wanted to fill your motorhome with gas they would first have to block up all the ventilation that is lower than bed height, and if you slept in the Luton thats a hell of a lot of gas.

 

I agree that some people sleep soundly especialy after a night cap, they would not hear anyone getting into the van provided it was not alarmed.

 

 

David.

[Brian Kirby]

Derek Uzzell - 2010-03-15 7:21 AM

JohnP - 2010-03-15 12:55 AM I think Brian Kirby has a copy of the Anaesthetists letter. Perhaps he will post relevant bits of it again on this thread. There was a long discussion on this topic sometime ago but it appears to have disappered

This is a link to the earlier massive 'gas attacks' thread that contains the anaesthetist's advice obtained by Brian Kirby: http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=5565&start=1 (The thread is now 'un-stickied', which means it's currently lurking in the part of the forum where the February 2009 'last-posted' stuff lives. There's nothing to stop people posting to the original thread if they so wish, which would yank it up into the present time-frame. On the other hand, they could just read through it and let the matter quietly die.)

The essence of that thead is contained in the following:

GAS ATTACKS

Derek Dean wrote to November Interchange (p 223) querying what alarm to fit to guard against gas attacks.

Since this debate has rattled around for a long time, with much deliberation over how the narcotic could be administered and what it might be, I thought I'd try to get an expert view on the feasibility of using such gases to knock out the occupants of  motorhomes / caravans. 

Since they do this all the time, so to speak, I thought I'd ask the Royal College of Anaesthetists for their view.  Somewhat to my surprise, they provided the following, rather instructive, reply.  Interesting isn't it?  Sleep tight folks!

“Dear Mr Kirby,

Thank you for your enquiry.  I would like to inform you that you are not the first enquirer with this question.  Professor Hatch, our Clinical Advisor, has given the following previous comments:

"I can give you a categorical assurance that it would not be possible to render someone unconscious with ether without their knowledge, even if they were sleeping at the time.  Ether is an extremely pungent agent and a relatively weak anaesthetic by modern standards and has a very irritant affect of the air passages, causing coughing and sometimes vomiting.  It takes some time to reach unconsciousness, even if given by direct application to the face on a rag, and the concentration needed by some sort of spray into a room would be enormous.  The smell hangs around for days and would be obvious to anyone the next day.

There are much more powerful agents around now, some of which are almost odourless.  However, these would be unlikely to be able to achieve the effect you describe, and the cost would be huge enough to deter any thief unless he was after the crown jewels.  The only practicable agent is probably the one used by the Russians in the Moscow siege - I advised the BBC on their programme about this.  The general feeling is that they used an agent which is not available outside the KGB!

Finally, unsupervised anaesthesia, which is what we are really talking about is very dangerous.  In the Moscow siege about 20% of victims died from asphyxia, because their airways were unprotected.  If the reports you talk about are true I would have expected a significant number of deaths or cases of serious brain damage to have been reported." 

I hope this information is helpful to you.   

Regards,

General Administrator

Professional Standards Directorate
The Royal College of Anaesthetists”

Not conclusive evidence that such attacks could never take place, of course, but a fairly good indicator of the risk of becoming a victim of one such.  I suspect much of the problem with reported attacks is Chinese whispers, where the same (unsubstantiated) event is endlessly re-told, changing a bit each time, until an impression of epidemic proportion is created.

Brian Kirby

[Colin Leake]

Never mind gas. Why use this when the telly sends me off most evenings, especially when we have had a day out in the fresh air followed by a meal with a glass or two of vino.

[kontiki]

I personally believe it to be an urban myth, I have met two motorhomers who swore this happened to them. One was a German who we didn't speak to much. The other were a Scotish couple who liked their drink, they had a dog who would more than likely lick the burglar to death than bark. They were new to motorhoming & had a RV, the night in question they hadn't put the alarm on.

 

Break in do happen, some of the things are a bit far fetched. The wifes handbag was stolen after getting our tyre punctured in the sidewall while travelling through Valencia on a Sunday afternoon. Big cities, motorway aires are places where these sort of attacks might occur. Take sensible precautions without being paranoid. Make them a habit what you do so it becomes second nature. I have made my own type of dead lock for the caravan door (I can remove it quickly if needed) I put a strap across the front doors (it's very low down & can't be reached from the windows) I put the seats in such a position that they need to be moved to get into the van & we ALWAYS put the alarm on. We make sure the keys are by the bed & I can press the alarm to set it off, we have a mobile phone to hand. Things like this if you do them a few times they just become second nature. Our main rule is if we don't fell safe we will move to somewhere we are in our comfort zone.