Fiat Side lights - Is my van legal?

[TheBrowns]

Hi all,

Can anyone help. I bought a new Fiat last January 2012 from Nu Venture, it has the Euro 4 engine but the latest black dashboard. The van has side lights in the headlamp units but does not have a switch to turn them on. This is because the new dashboard was designed for use with permanently lit LED running lights. This means I can not have side lights lit on van and can only have dipped or full beam. Since the side lights are installed but do not work I have been informed by an MOT centre that it will fail an MOT. I spoke to local fiat van dealership before the van was a year old and they basically brushed me off as nothing wrong and nothing they can do. When I stated I was not happy with this, they spoke to fiat direct who told them to tell me same thing.

 

Who else has same problem and have you had it resolved as my vehicle is just about to be 2 years old and I am getting concerned if I get stopped by police or overseas.

[Frankkia]

Are you sure you can't turn them on? On the old Fiat there was no separate switch but as part of the ignition lock there was a tab which you press whilst revolving the key beyond the ign off point to a point where the side lights were switched on.

 

Failing that could you not purchase an automatic DRL switch from Ebay for a few quid and wire it to the side lights (exchange the side light bulbs for higher powered LED variants).

[RogerC]

As the vehicle has to go through type approval I don't see what your MoT guy is on about unless of course the vehicle has been modified since manufacture.  Why not try contacting the people you purchasecd it from and ask them if they are aware of any problems or better still how do the sidelights work.

[Mel B]

I've had a shuftie on the web and came across this suggestion:

 

Further information now found:-

 

With the ignition off and the key in the STOP

position or removed:

Move the ring on the lighting stalk to

position O, then to dipped or main beam

headlamps.

The lamps will remain on while you are

parked.

 

It was on this thread:

 

http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftoptitle-135455-fiat-ducato-sidelight-control.html

[Derek Uzzell]

Nu Venture motorhomes are usually built on a Fiat Berlingo base rather than on a Ducato.

 

Having said that, if a Berlingo has the same arrangement as a Ducato for its parking lights, turning them on will be as Mel B advises.

 

For the current Ducato, how to turn on the parking-lights is described in the "External Lights" section of the handbook (Page 69 in my downloadable copy) and there are "Parking lights" and "Side lights" entries in the handbook's index.

 

I would expect a Berlingo handbook (or any vehicle's handbook for that matter) to contain advice on how to turn on parking-lights. While it may well be impossible to drive a vehicle with its parking-lights illuminated, it stands to reason that it must be possible to have parking-lights illuminated when a vehicle is parked and its motor not running.

[mildi]

TheBrowns - 2013-12-30 7:19 PM

 

Hi all,

Can anyone help. I bought a new Fiat last January 2012 from Nu Venture, it has the Euro 4 engine but the latest black dashboard. The van has side lights in the headlamp units but does not have a switch to turn them on. This is because the new dashboard was designed for use with permanently lit LED running lights. This means I can not have side lights lit on van and can only have dipped or full beam. Since the side lights are installed but do not work I have been informed by an MOT centre that it will fail an MOT. I spoke to local fiat van dealership before the van was a year old and they basically brushed me off as nothing wrong and nothing they can do. When I stated I was not happy with this, they spoke to fiat direct who told them to tell me same thing.

 

Who else has same problem and have you had it resolved as my vehicle is just about to be 2 years old and I am getting concerned if I get stopped by police or overseas.

 

 

I have a euro5 Ducato with the same switch as I ordered mine with daylight running lights thinking I was going to get some nice looking LEDs on the front.

What I actually got was the normal head light with the front side light permanently on (not the rear) the light stalk switch only has one position which is to turn on the light to dip or full beam. You can turn the DRL off using the menu on the trip so effectively you don't have any side lights but you still have parking lights when the ignition is off. I don't have a problem with it but seeing as this was a £50 option when I ordered the van from Fiat I think this was a bit of a rip off as you would be better off just having the normal lights. My Fiat dealer had never ordered one with DRLs so this was new to them too.

I think your MOT guy needs to do his homework

[Keithl]

Derek Uzzell - 2013-12-31 9:43 AM

 

Nu Venture motorhomes are usually built on a Fiat Berlingo base rather than on a Ducato.

 

But not all of them Derek, Their website shows a Citroen Relay based 'Caletta' Link.

 

The OP (sorry can't remember your name) specifically mentions black dashboard and Euro 4 engine which are references I have only ever heard in relation to a Ducato so perhaps in 2012 NuVenture DID build on a Ducato (?)

 

To the OP, please can we have more info.

 

Keith.

[colin]

mildi - 2013-12-31 10:15 AM

 

but you still have parking lights when the ignition is off.

 

How do you turn the parking lights on? It might be this which OP is struggling with.

[Steve928]

colin - 2013-12-31 1:41 PM

 

mildi - 2013-12-31 10:15 AM

 

but you still have parking lights when the ignition is off.

 

How do you turn the parking lights on? It might be this which OP is struggling with.

 

Insert ignition key.

Press black tab on ignition lock barrel.

Turn key back one position to 'PARK'

Withdraw key.

[Derek Uzzell]

Keithl - 2013-12-31 10:23 AM

 

Derek Uzzell - 2013-12-31 9:43 AM

 

Nu Venture motorhomes are usually built on a Fiat Berlingo base rather than on a Ducato.

 

But not all of them Derek, Their website shows a Citroen Relay based 'Caletta' Link.

 

The OP (sorry can't remember your name) specifically mentions black dashboard and Euro 4 engine which are references I have only ever heard in relation to a Ducato so perhaps in 2012 NuVenture DID build on a Ducato (?)

 

To the OP, please can we have more info.

 

Keith.

 

You are right of course. Clearly Graham Brown's motorhome can't have been built on a Berlingo (or Relay) base as these are Citroens. :-(

 

Nu Venture has built on Fiats in the past. This 2006-registered "Caletta" model is on a pre-X250 Ducato.

 

 

The on-line Ducato X250 manual I was referring to is a 2011 publication so should be applicable to Graham's motorhome if it's a Ducato. The manual shows the front side-light positioned (exactly where one would expect it) in the dipped-beam part of the headlamp-unit. The side-light is a simple 5W (W5W) capsule bulb. When specified, the DRL is within the main-beam part of the headlamp-unit. The DRL is not a separate or LED bulb, it's the 15W component of a twin-filament H15 55W/15W halogen bulb.

 

The manual says that, if dipped headlamps are activated, the DRLs go out and the side lights and dipped headlamps come on. When the ignition key is turned to STOP or removed and the twist switch is turned from O to the dipped-beam symbol, all the side lights and number plate lights come on.

 

The Fiat manual's instruction on selecting Parking Lights is as Mel E said earlier - "These lights can only be turned on with ignition key in the STOP position or removed, by moving the left lever ring nut first to O and then to main or dipped beam . The relevant warning light in the instrument panel comes on".

 

From mildi's advice and what's said in the manual, it may not be immediately obvious how the Ducato's lighting arrangements function. Whatever Graham's Fiat base-vehicle, the front and rear parking lights should be operable when the motorhome is parked.

[Addie]

There is no such thing as 'side lights' in reality they are 'parking lights'. The tiny 5w bulbs are next to no good when in motion and are actually pretty dangerous as it gets dark and drivers forget to turn on their headlights - so the ability to use them in motion has been removed on the Euro5.

 

They now function as 'backup bulbs' if the headlamp failed and the full beam lights illuminate at 30% to form your DRL's rather than LED's. You can enable them by using the dashboard menu, controlled by the buttons to the right of the steering wheel with the keys turned in the ignition but the engine not running.

 

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-NW8e5krh6Qs/UQup4tHH5zI/AAAAAAAAe7w/urVBO5QISGU/s653/fullbeam.jpg

 

http://s14.postimg.org/3m70uua5d/2012_10_12_10_28_17.jpg

 

If you want to use your parking lights for their intended purpose (to be on when your vehicle is parked, without the keys in the ignition) press this button before turning and removing your key:

 

http://s7.postimg.org/6r5hlnhsb/DSC00155copy.jpg

 

The above information was supplied in the manual for my fathers Euro 5.

[Derek Uzzell]

I notice that this issue was discussed here 2 years ago

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Euro-5-2012-Ducato-Light-Issue/25828/

 

There may well be a difference between Euro 5 and Euro 4 Ducatos regarding how the lights are operated and, on reflection, I think 'my' on-line Ducato handbook may be for Euro 5 vehicles.

 

I believe most people would agree with Addie that the 5W bulbs fitted in the headlamp units should be regarded as parking-lights only. Fiat still calls them "side lights" in the handbook, though.

 

 

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

I've now downloaded a 2009 publication of the Ducato "Owner Handbook" that would relate to Euro 4 vehicles.

 

A Euro 4 Ducato's steering-column left lever has a knurled 'ring' control with 3 positions (rather than the later model's 2 positions) for OFF, SIDE LIGHTS or DIPPED HEADLIGHTS, and it seems to be possible to drive the vehicle with just the side lights on.

 

The instructions for selecting PARKING LIGHTS are that those lights can only be turned on with the ignition key in the STOP position or removed. The left lever's knurled-ring control is then moved first to OFF and then to the SIDE LIGHTS or DIPPED HEADLIGHTS position. A warning light in the instrument panel comes on.

 

Graham Brown has said that his Fiat-based Nu Venture motorhome has a Euro 4 motor but with the latest dashboard. It has been assumed that the base-model is a Ducato and that's almost certainly the case. As Keith pointed out, there was a dashboard change when Ducato motors moved from Euro 4 to Euro 5 in mid-2011 and this matches Graham's statement.

 

Graham says "The van has side lights in the headlamp units but does not have a switch to turn them on." This strongly suggests that his motorhome has the Euro 5 Ducato's 2-position steering-column lever with a knurled-ring control that selects OFF or DIPPED HEADLIGHTS, but not SIDE LIGHTS.

 

The Owner Manual for Euro 5 Ducatos advises that (if Daytime Running Lights (DRLs) are fitted) selecting the DIPPED HEADLIGHTS position on the 2-position knurled-ring control will cause the DRLs to go out and SIDE LIGHTS and DIPPED HEADLIGHTS to come on (with a warning light illuminating in the instrument panel).

 

Logically, if DRLs are NOT factory-fitted to a Ducato (or the DRLs have been deactivated via the dashboard menu), selecting the DIPPED HEADLIGHTS position on the 2-position knurled-ring control should cause SIDE LIGHTS and DIPPED HEADLIGHTS to come on (with a warning light illuminating in the instrument panel).

 

It would seem from the above that it should NOT be possible to drive the latest Ducato with just its SIDE LIGHTS illuminated.

 

I'm not sure from Graham's posting whether the 5W bulbs in his motorhome's headlamp units do not illuminate at all, or whether they can be made to illuminate as 'parking lights' when the vehicle is not running but do not illuminate when DIPPED HEADLIGHTS are selected and the vehicle is being driven.

 

I'm a mite concerned by his observation that "...I can not have side lights lit on van and can only have dipped or full beam". This suggests perhaps that he may want to be able to drive with just the side lights illuminated, which doesn't seem to be an option with the latest Ducatos.

 

Similarly, as a Fiat van dealership and Fiat themselves have advised Graham that there is no fault, it's tempting to think that how his motorhome's lights are working is how Fiat have intended them to work - basically, that there's no problem to resolve.

 

For legality, I would have thought that the 5W headlamp-unit bulbs should illuminate as parking-lights and, if the vehicle has no DRLs or the DRLs are deactivated, the 5W bulbs should also illuminate when the vehicle's headlamps are turned on. If the 5W bulbs do not illuminate when the vehicle's headlamps are turned on, then the vehicle is likely to fail an MOT test.

[euroserv]

Hello everyone, and Happy New Year.

 

I have just called our local MOT tester and he has confirmed that as far as he is aware, and unless there has been a very recent update from VOSA which he is not yet aware of; any vehicle presented for test should have 'independent position lights that can be illuminated while the vehicle is stationary or in motion.'

Therefore; as far as he is concerned, if any of these vehicles were presented for MOT test today; they would fail.

 

I am going to send an enquiry to VOSA. If they cannot confirm that a change has been made to the rules for MOT tests that covers these vehicles, my next step will be to contact the supplying dealer to inform them that they have supplied a vehicle that does not comply with current lighting legislation.

 

I will get back to you.

 

Nick

[RogerC]

euroserv - 2014-01-02 11:00 AMHello everyone, and Happy New Year.I have just called our local MOT tester and he has confirmed that as far as he is aware, and unless there has been a very recent update from VOSA which he is not yet aware of; any vehicle presented for test should have 'independent position lights that can be illuminated while the vehicle is stationary or in motion.'Therefore; as far as he is concerned, if any of these vehicles were presented for MOT test today; they would fail.I am going to send an enquiry to VOSA. If they cannot confirm that a change has been made to the rules for MOT tests that covers these vehicles, my next step will be to contact the supplying dealer to inform them that they have supplied a vehicle that does not comply with current lighting legislation.I will get back to you.Nick

 

Surely the CE/vehicle approval process would have covered this?  I can't see any manufacturer getting a 'conformity' certification if it were illegal.

 

[Robinhood]

....the thread as a whole introduces a set of variances which rather confuse as to what is happening with the OP's 'van.

 

The original post seems to imply that the fitted side-lights cannot be turned on (at all) when the vehicle is in motion.

 

Further posts leave one to question, however, whether the issue described by the OP is really that the vehicle cannot solely have the side-lights illuminated when in motion (i.e. they are only illuminated, effectively as position lights, when the headlights are on either full or dipped beam).

 

If this is the case, then I can't see that the vehicle would not comply with the RVLR, which requires sidelights to be switched on during "lighting up times", but does not appear to preclude use of a switch that also switches on the headlights (which must be used in motion anyway, out of built-up areas).

 

The "secondary" use of the side lights is essentially as marker or position lights in case of a headlamp failure, and this function would patently still be there under these circumstances.

 

Of course, there would still be the requirement to use solely the sidelights for parking, but the method(s) of achieving this over the years on various Ducato models has been discussed in some depth, and I can't believe the vehicle is not equipped with such capability.

 

Whilst C&U, RVLR and MOT practice can sometimes get out of step, I would be pretty sure that, if the fitted sidelights DO come on when the headlights are used, (regardless of the headlights being illuminated by the same switch), and there is a parking light capability, then the vehicle is MOT compliant. (If, however, they don't, then I would suspect it isn't).

 

 

[Robinhood]

.....and I note that this is not the first time the query has been raised here:

 

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Euro-5-2012-Ducato-Light-Issue/25828/

 

 

[TheBrowns]

Happy New Year (lol) and thanks for all the responses.

I thought I would get an email if anyone posted a reply (I am new to this) hence the delay in my response, as I have only just checked in, I had thought no one must have said anything. How wrong can you be. :$

 

To clarify a couple of points raised.

 

There are 2 Nu Venture companies and our was made by the other one Nu Venture Campers, they make/made Utopia and a few others, also made bespoke vans for both Dave Hurell and Andy Stothert, our Camper is a bespoke 3 berth of my design.

 

NVC do not do Type approval and as the issue is vehicle related and during a time of change almost every motorhome manufacture would try swerve the issue and pass back to Fiat.

 

According to sourses within MMM if a van has a Black dashboard then it is Euro5, ours is a case in point that that statement is not 100% corect.

 

We do have the Ducato LWB with Euro 4 engine and the (Euro 5 style) black Dashboard (as they ran out of grey ones with 3 position light switch), but no DRL. We only found out that Euro5 was on its way a week after the base vehicle was placed on order and was told it could not be changed as already on system being built!!! Van still took 3 months to arrive from Fiat due to various delays (it was also held up with a batch for IH due to their financial difficulities at the time as the same distributor had ordered mine in same batch)

 

Yes I often want to use Side lights during the day when light level is a little low i.e light rain, early afternoon, and Yes I do agree that many people then forget to turn light to dimmed beam, normal driving light position.

 

I will check (at the weekend as van not stored at home) if the two 5w (side light bulbs) come on with normal dipped beam and will also check if it possible to use them for parking lights.

 

Once the 2 items above are clarified then I will again confer with local MOT centre armed with new information on the use of lights and as mentioned expect them to confirm we are actually legal, if indeed still not happy with Fiat.

 

It is a shame that the local Fiat dealer could not explain how and when the lights should come on and why they are legal. My main point to them was that I had ordered (with many other ticks in options list) a van from a spec sheet that had side lights (just the same as my previous van) and a van arrived with NO side lights or DRL and at time my understanding was I needed one or the other to be legal on the road.

 

P.s. Thanks again to everyone. This van is a 4th motorhome over last 11 years. Our last one again was a bespoke made van by VanMaster called a Grampian, they made 2 others based on my design (after consultation with me) so out there in world are 3 two berth MWB rear lounge vans based on my design.

Our current Van is a 3 berth rear U shape lounge with front dinette and 4 belted seats + every modcon except TV as don't want one thats what home is for.

[Derek Uzzell]

TheBrowns - 2014-01-08 8:48 AM

 

I thought I would get an email if anyone posted a reply..

 

Hi Graham

 

If you want that to happen I believe you'll need to modify your Profile via the Forums Control Panel (see the entry in the 'stripe' beneath the "Welcome, TheBrowns" section in the upper part of this webpage.)

 

There are a couple of relevant options - "Receive e-mail notifications by default?" and "Receive e-mail notifications when someone sends you a private message?" - and I think both of these are automatically set to "NO" when you register initially as a forum member. If you want e-mail notifications, you'll need to choose the "YES" alternative.

 

 

[TheBrowns]

Thanks Derek , I had ticked the boxes when set up but weirdly I did receive an email about your message so all is well.

[Brian Kirby]

TheBrowns - 2014-01-08 8:48 AM.................We do have the Ducato LWB with Euro 4 engine and the (Euro 5 style) black Dashboard (as they ran out of grey ones with 3 position light switch), but no DRL. .................

If you find that the van is not UK legal, my suggestion would be to take this up direct with Fiat technical. I am aware that NVC supplied it to you, and may eventually need to give Fiat a shove on your behalf, possibly through their supplier, but it seems a bit unreasonable to place the onus on so small an outfit initially to make all the running.

 

In the final analysis, Fiat made the van, and supplied it as a RHD (presumably) vehicle thorugh their own suply chain to a UK distributor for use in the UK. So, it should be UK legal in all respects. It is possible that someone inadvertantly grabbed a non UK compliant combination of parts during production to avoid delaying the line, so that as supplied it is legally deficient. If switches need to be changed or added, or lights swapped for a different type, to bring it up to the required standard, that should be a fairly simple matter to arrange, and it should be attended to under Fiat's warranty.

 

So, if the answer on the legality of the lights is in the region of a definite maybe, I think in this case go to the horse's mouth with the VIN, some pics of the dash etc, and the verdict of the MoT tester, and ask them to either confirm how they reason that it is legal (based on the advice of your local dealer that it is), or to make the necessary mods. You may need two or three go's with Fiat technical before the penny drops at the right level, as I'd guess what you have ended up with is a bit of a one off. However, I think they will get you there in the end, and may also give the local dealer a little teach-in - to help the penny drop with him as well.

[Derek Uzzell]

The relevant MOT checks are here:

 

http://www.motinfo.gov.uk/htdocs/m4s01000101.htm

 

Checking the operation of Daytime Running Lights (DRLs) is not part of the UK MOT test (hardly surprising when a driver can legally disable DRLs).

 

It's legal to drive a vehicle in the UK with just position-lamps illuminated during 'good visibility' daylight hours should one so choose. This was practicable historically with most vehicles and I can do it with my Transit-based motorhome and Skoda car. It was also evidently possible with 'old dashboard' Euro 4 Ducatos.

 

It would appear that DRLs should not illuminate when a vehicle's headlamps are on, but there doesn't seem to be any prohibition on having position-lamps illuminated at the same time as DRLs. However, as DRLs are intended to be used during daylight, one might ask quite why one would want to be driving around with DRLs and position-lights on.

 

It would seem that Fiat has chosen an either/or philosophy with the current Ducato - you can drive either with just the DRLs ON and position-lights OFF, or (if you've disabled the DRLs or they aren't fitted) you can drive with the headlamps ON when the position-lights will also be ON but the DRLs will be OFF.

[euroserv]

Hello,

 

I got a response to my email to VOSA very quickly and since I did not include a telephone number was very impressed that they looked up our company name and found a phone number to call me on; so full marks to the men in black!

 

They confirmed that the position lights did not have to be independently switched but must be illuminated after dark even if the headlights were also on. If the side (or position) lamps did not illuminate at all then the vehicle would fail a current MOT test.

 

I checked one of our Euro 5 vans and the position lamps do indeed come on with the headlamps, so this is fine. It's not easy to see that they are on because they are comparatively dim compared to the headlamp but they definitely are. There is still the option by reverse twisting the ignition lock before removing the key to switch on just the position lights, and rear lamps when parked.

 

The vehicles that we have do therefore comply with current legislation and in my opinion prevent people from driving after dark with just piddling little lamps on that are neither use nor ornament.

 

Another thing that i have learned is that if a DRL is fitted within 20mm of a direction indicator lamp; it must switch off while the indicator is flashing. This accounts for a lot of the strange light shows on the front of modern Audi cars but still does not excuse the stupid front fog lights turning on individually on some Merc's and VW's while they are going round corners. For goodness sake.......

 

Nick

[Robinhood]

euroserv - 2014-01-08 2:23 PM

 

....

 

They confirmed that the position lights did not have to be independently switched but must be illuminated after dark even if the headlights were also on. If the side (or position) lamps did not illuminate at all then the vehicle would fail a current MOT test.

 

 

Nick

 

.....I rather suspected as much (see my post above), and as this is not the first time a similar question has been asked on the forum, I fully believe that the OP's van is working as designed, and he will find that his sidelights come on with the headlights (and that there is a separate method of using the sidelights as parking lights whilst not mobile).

[TheBrowns]

Thanks again to everyone who took the time to look into this and reply.

 

Yes as mentioned the position lights (can't call them side lights anymore) do alight with driving lamps, so that is part 1 done.

 

To turn parking lights on, there is not any black tabs or key positions on the vehicle (as some above and Local fiat dealer stated). It appears the parking lights can only be activated once the ignition is switched off, either with keys still in or out and then turn the driving light stalk to OFF then back to ON this brings the positioning lights on front and back and also illuminates the lights on symbol on dashboard.

 

Parking lights auto turn off once ignition turned on and light switch turned back to off, as they revert back to driving lights as soon as ignition is on.

 

Checked again with MOT and they are now ok with this.

 

The moral of saga. If you expect but don't get side lights then tough, live with it!

 

Don't expect any help or rational explanation from Fiat, but do make it clear to any testing station (in years to come) that position lights and parking lights DO work as designed.