Fiat Ducato scuttle issue

[Don636]

I had my one year old Fiat a Ducato PVC in for it's first service this week and asked them to look at the seal between the plastic scuttle plate and the windscreen as it had come way in a number of places and the join in the middle had come apart. If I poured water on the windscreen it poured into the engine bay so this is a serious problem.

 

I have been told that the scuttle plate has buckled and needs to be replaced - waiting for confirmation that this will be fixed under warranty but was advised this should be approved. I asked what had happened I.e.

was there some sealant behind the rubber seal that had failed for instance. I was told that sealant was not used in the assembly process, neither was there any form of adhesive fixing used whatsoever. I was told that the plastic scuttle is simply pushed hard against the windscreen when screwed into place. The scuttle has started to come apart in the middle and buckled along it's length, pulling it away from the windscreen and the only fix is a new scuttle.

 

This does not give me a lot of confidence that a replacement will be any better in the long run.

 

I was concerned about water ingress into the engine bay before this is fixed so I decided to apply a length of black Duck Tape over the scuttle and windscreen. This seems to have worked fine and looks really neat, you would not know there was a problem unless you were looking for it.

 

I was thinking of applying some Duck Tape on top of the new scuttle/windscreen to help hold everything in place and perhaps stop this happening again. I know that the Ducato has a long history of scuttle issues and I was wondering if anyone else out there has had the scuttle replaced under warranty recently and if the fix has worked.

 

I would also be interested to hear if you think my idea of applying Duck Tape on the new scuttle is a good idea. Do you think this would do any good ? Should I just do it anyway as it can't do any harm and might help long term?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[kevina]

I have good quality black pvc (electricians) tape on mine and change it about every other year. It works perfectly and is barely visible. A bit of sealant at each end to stop the water coming down the edge of the screen entering the engine bay and the usual mods to the scuttle itself.

 

Kev

[Derek Uzzell]

Don636 - 2015-05-30 7:36 PM

 

...I would also be interested to hear if you think my idea of applying Duck Tape on the new scuttle is a good idea. Do you think this would do any good ? Should I just do it anyway as it can't do any harm and might help long term?

 

 

While ‘sticky tape’ may be a reasonably effective preventative measure (and - as you say - won’t do any harm) it would be better to address the potential water-leak problem by stopping the scuttle’s edge-seal from coming away from the windscreen. This would mean using a sealant (example below)

 

http://www.waysideadhesives.com/Masterseal--45_prod.php

 

when the replacement scuttle was being installed, which would be OK if you were replacing the scuttle yourself but might be trickier to arrange if the replacement is to be an under-warranty job.

[Sydney1]

Had ours replaced under warranty on our 2012 Fiat based motorhome. Issue has improved but still not 100% water tight so I do the same as you and when parked in storage put a plastic tarpaulin under the silverscreen to divert most of the rainwater away.

 

Very poor design

[globebuster]

The trouble with using Duck Tape is that it will start to de-grade...

 

You'll soon find the outer surface going brittle and flakey, whilst the adhesive will migrate and it will be messy to clean off at a later stage.

 

As Derek suggests, you could use a decent PU sealant and run a bead across [and just under] the top screen edge retrospectively - it's not a difficult job.

I would use some Sika SG20 - if you can get hold of it.

 

The most critical point to seal is the centre join, from the screen down to the bonnet lip which I've always managed to 'gloop' successfully.

 

BUT - Most importantly, you need to monitor the drain holes - as yours is a later 250 you will at least have the additional one under the offside wiper [difficult to see] I would leave a cable tie in the hole with a loop in the end which will affectively give you a 'clearing rod' to maintain adequate drainage, or you just might find the RH wiper shaft laying in water, which as a consequence will start to wick down on to the motor.

 

I use the cable tie method on all the scuttle drains, and I think it's a good idea to add another drain on the nearside - you'll see there's the perfect place for it. Just drill out the recess and bond a little spigot to it [actually the nozzle supplied with sealant is ideal] and then insert a drain tube, ensuring this is routed down far enough to avoid any engine components.

Adding this extra limber hole means that any screen run-off will be quickly disposed of if you're not parked on the level.

 

Out of interest, has anybody with a 290 checked to see if the original 250 arrangement has been revised?

[Don636]

I will mention the use of sealant to the garage and see what they say but I myself am not sure about this.

 

The problem is not simply that the rubber seal part of the scuttle (this is an integral part of the plastic scuttle and not a separate rubber seal) has come unstuck from the windscreen and could be stuck down. The problem is that the scuttle is distorted or buckled along it's length and this means that the seal is bending away from the windscreen in places, almost in a slightly wavy fashion. Although the buckling is very minimal there is obviously sufficient pressure caused to force the seal away from the windscreen and I am not sure if sealant would be sticky enough to resist this force. I would then be worried that water got in behind the plastic scuttle, had nowhere to go as there was sealant in the way, and this caused the metal to rust under the seal, unseen. I have checked and I can pull the rubber seal part of the plastic scuttle away from the windscreen along the full length and there is no sealant behind. Surely, if a Fiat are aware of this problem, they would be capable of determining if some sealant would fix the problem. The fact that they have not done so suggests that this is not a permanent solution.

 

The centre joint has opened up and I can see what looks to be a strip of double sided adhesive tape. If this is all that holds the two parts of the scuttle together then this seems to be a weak point.

 

According to the Fiat mechanic the scuttle is held in place against the windscreen simply through the pressure applied by being screwed in place. For this to work you would think you need equal pressure along the full length. In my case there is clearly not equal pressure full length, hence the buckling. If the scuttle is in two parts that are stuck together and this joint comes apart might this cause the buckling? I am not sure how many fixing points there are along the length and hence if the centre point has any effect on overall integrity.

 

My thought was to use strong tape to help hold the plastic scuttle in place right from the outset and so prevent the buckling effect. Duck Tape might do this as it is quite strong but I can't see electrical tape being strong enough to resist buckling so would only work if the scuttle remained flat against the windscreen.

 

Whatever is going on it is clear this is a crap design and I can't understand how a company the size of Fiat is unable to permanently fix this.

 

It must be the case that not all vans suffer this problem so why some and not others?

 

One point that the mechanic mentioned was that the problem is worse in a coachbuilt motorhome where the overall design integrity of the whole windscreen/scuttle/drainage set-up is messed up by the builder adding a whacking great pod over the cab roof. Another good reason to buy a PVC?

 

It is a real shame that this problem exists as overall I have been very pleased with the van, especially the Comfortmatic gearbox, which does more than anything else to transform the feel of the vehicle on the move from a builders van to a luxurious and relaxing motorhome.

 

[Rayjsj]

Agree with all the above, ref. It being an 'afterthought' type of design, a 5 year old could have designed better.I have Sika flexed the join between the two halves, and if I see any water ingress between lower windscreen and scuttle panel I will 'Sikaflex' that too, I use 512 black Permanent as I want it to be a permanent solution. A windscreen replacement will be a major job.Mine is a coach built with an over pod. Unfortunately although we the end users are paying luxury money , many over £50000, they are still based on cheaply produced 'Builders Vans'.

[kevina]

My scuttle is slightly buckled and I can assure you the pvc tape holds it all down perfectly. I've never had it peel away in 6 years and I have much more faith in this keeping water out of the engine bay than sealing under the scuttle top edge.

 

The tape in the photo has been on for one year, faces the sun in storage and spent two months in the Alps skiing (ie freezing every night). It is a 15 minute job to replace including a thorough clean.

 

Kev

[Don636]

Thanks Kev. I tried using electrical tape but it is not very wide and it lifted in one day - is there a secret to getting it to stick? I think electrical tape would be easier to remove and clean off (if you had to) than Duck Tape which can be a bugger to clean up although it just takes more time and effort.

 

I want to avoid sealant really and I am definitely going to apply some sort of tape straight away, before any problems arise on the replacement - prevention is better than cure so they say. I might go as far as to say that everyone should consider doing this.

[Derek Uzzell]

globebuster - 2015-05-31 10:20 AM

 

...Out of interest, has anybody with a 290 checked to see if the original 250 arrangement has been revised?

 

The X290 has a completely revised scuttle arrangement (with 3 large-diameter drain tubes) that was advertised at the X290’s launch as offering much improved protection against water entering the engine compartment. However, I believe basic watertightness still relies on the scuttle’s plastic moulding sealing properly against the windscreen. Time will tell...

 

FIAT DUCATO X:290 - Underbonnet.jpg.pdf

[kevina]

Firstly use a good quality tape, not a cheap one. ie buy the most expensive as it is still only a fiver.

 

Second, I clean the windscreen and top of scuttle with a glass cleaner and kitchen paper very thoroughly.

 

Third, do not stretch the tape too much and try to get a nice line without having too many "second attempts".

 

I use one length on the nearside to the scuttle join, then a short vertical piece, then do the offside. Do not stretch the tape at all at the join.

 

Don't forget to seal the groove at the sides of the screen with silicone.

 

Kev

 

ps I unscrew the middle part of the offside scuttle to get some sealant in the join more easily before starting.

[Len Salisbury]

Does this problem only apply to Fiat as I have a Peugeot Boxer 2010 which is made in the same factory? I have a drain hole on the driver's side but not on the left and I have wondered why there is nowt on the left as there is a raised bump in the middle preventing water going to the drain hole.

[rolyk]

I've been using pvc electrical tape for the last five years and it's virtually unnoticeable. Like Kev says, try not to stretch the tape and let it relax back into its normal length before applying. I use acetone to clean the glass and the scuttle before applying. It's difficult to get the tape absolutely parallel to the top of the scuttle and to get it perfectly parallel you can temporarily run masking tape on the glass as a guide line.

 

I've found that rainwater running down the grooves at each side of the windscreen can get into the engine bay in great quantities at the extreme ends of the scuttle and it's important to fill any voids at the bottom with a sealant, preferably Sikaflex. This is particularly important on the nearside where there are a number of wiring looms with exposed plugs and sockets.

 

Roly

 

[Derek Uzzell]

Len Salisbury - 2015-06-01 9:05 AM

 

Does this problem only apply to Fiat as I have a Peugeot Boxer 2010 which is made in the same factory? I have a drain hole on the driver's side but not on the left and I have wondered why there is nowt on the left as there is a raised bump in the middle preventing water going to the drain hole.

 

I would have thought there should be no difference between a 2010 Boxer and a 2010 Ducato as far as the scuttle-design is concerned.

 

It would appear from earlier forum comments that Euro 4 Ducato X250s (manufactured mid-2006 to mid-2011) had one large drainage hole at the right-hand (UK offside) end of the scuttle (which tallies with your description) whereas Euro 5 Ducato X250s’ scuttles had an extra small drainage hole at the scuttle’s left-hand end.

 

These earlier forum discussions may be useful

 

https://www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=ssl#q=drain+windscreen+under+bonnet+site:www.outandaboutlive.co.uk%2Fforums%2F

 

[Don636]

Thanks very much for the great advice guys. When I get the van back fixed I will apply some tape and sealant at the ends as a precautionary measure and see what happens with this scuttle.

[Don636]

Fiat have confirmed that the scuttle will be replaced under warranty, which is good but they have to wait on the parts being delivered from Italy!! Given the number of problems there seem to be with these parts I expected them to have a pile of scuttle panels ready on the shelf but apparently not.

[paws]

Extra drain holes are not restricted to euro 5 Ducatos - I have a 2010 euro 4 Ducato wich had one large and two small drain holes ( which had a habit of clogging up)

Have since enlarged smaller holes and added a further hole .

Engine cover had been fitted prior to purchase

 

Patrick

[Don636]

Now have the van back after warranty repairs, with a whole new scuttle plate fitted.

 

Great, or so I thought!,

 

I have just checked out under the bonnet today as it had been raining and there is still water present. I gently poured some water over the windscreen from a watering can and water is getting past the rubber seal on the leading edge of the scuttle into the engine compartment on the near side. The seal is only made through the force exerted onto the windscreen by clamping the scuttle into place. It seems that the system used just does not work and it is virtually impossible to get a good seal throughout the whole length of the scuttle. The obvious answer would seem to be to apply some form of sealant between the scuttle and the windscreen.

 

Also, there does not appear to be any seal on the edges of the bonnet next the lights so I not sure how you stop water getting in there as well. I also noticed that it is easy to overload the area round the offside wiper mount with water flow and it gets past an extra little rubber seal at the bonnet hinge.

 

I will have to go back to Fiat again so I will report back on what they say.

[kevina]

Read my posts again!

[Don636]

Yes, I can read and I understand what you are saying but I was only updating my original post with the fact that the Fiat warranty repair has not worked due to the basic flaw in the design and I thought people might be interested in progress with Fiat. This is a separate issue from modifications made by owners to try and get round the problem.

 

If you read my earlier post you will see that I fully intended to add tape after the replacement was fitted just in case there was a problem in the future but seeing as there is a problem immediately after the repair I will be leaving alone and going back to Fiat first.

[Will86]

One of my pet comments is that 'I'm not familiar with ... whatever it is' ... and this is another ... I worked in conjunction with the plastics industry for 50 years and offer the following ... Plastic expands with heat, if there's no space to do so it will buckle. Some of these problems may arise due to constant running hotter engines after extended miles travelling or being stored or parked facing the sun.

 

The manufacturers of plastic parts have a quality to follow. The part may differ from different suppliers according to how critical they are following the correct procedures. A scuttle tray is hardly an important part to a manufacturer, he relies on the granules supplier for accuracy of chemicals. Every minute part has a cost !

 

The plastic when injected may have been over or under-heated causing a deterioration in time. There are so many variables I doubt an answer can ever be found.

 

Adding tape is a good fix.whether the part is old or new, as has been said ... change it often.

 

Will

[Don636]

The guy at Fiat told me that he thought the problem was caused by the scuttle heating up in the sun and buckling so you are quite correct. The problem is that a brand new one has been fitted and it leaks so nothing to do with the effect of the sun. Clearly the system used to clamp the scuttle onto the windscreen surround does not work reliably. I doubt there is anything that can be done by Fiat but I shall see what they have to say.

[Brian Kirby]

These plactic scuttles are fairly common across a number of vehicles, and only provide a nominal seal. If the vehicle is in regular use, as most commercial vans can be expected to be, the water will only stand for a few hours before being evaporated off.

 

OTOH, motorhomes may stand for weeks, possibly months, and the water accumulates, penetrates to a far greater extent, and does not evaporate. The problem seems to be that with bonded screens the raw joint between screen and bodyshell is fairly unsightly, so manufacturers use "A" pillar cover strips and scuttle covers to hide the mess. For windscreen replacement (which most will need :-(), these must be easily removable and replaceable, lessening the likelihood of a good seal being achieved.

 

Realistically, therefore, I think one just has to do whatever is necassary to keep the water away from the engine bay, by adding tape or silicone sealant as and where necessary. It isn't ideal, it is just that motorhome use exposes the shortcomings of a design that, I suspect, for reasons stated above, was never intended to provide more than a nominal seal.

 

Commercial vans have the load-carrying capability for motorhome use, have generally tough mechanicals, and they are all we have to do the job. But, ultimately, they are fairly unrefined workhorses designed for a short, high mileage, life. They just aren't designed to last 20 years, which is what many of us expect motorhomes to achieve. So, it falls to us to modify them to suit our pattern of use. Annoying, but that is the way it is and, TBH, I can't see much likelihood of it changing.

[Don636]

Very well put Brian, I had not thought of it like that.

 

As you say, it is a commercial vehicle so the operator is probably not bothered by a little water ingress, as long as it does not prevent the vehicle being used. Any water ingress is now dealt with by all of the additional plastic covers and a commercial operator is probably not bothered by a bit of rust here and there if just cosmetic.

 

However, for motorhomers, like us, the van is our pride and joy so we are applying a higher set of standards. I want it to remain perfect and don't like seeing water and rust under the bonnet.

 

I will no doubt just have to accept the situation and make some mods to hopefully bring the standard up to what I expect.

 

 

[kevina]

You also raised the point about the edge of bonnet seal (or lack of).

 

I have a strip of foam about 10mm wide x 8mm thick cut and stuck with a good quality double sided tape (£150 for a 20cm x 100m roll quality) stuck down on the "ledge" which runs from the light to to front of the bonnet. This channels the water down onto the front grill. In fact I've since cut it to half length as I was concerned about a lack of ventilation and a build up of condensation though I might revisit that.

 

I can take a photo tomorrow if that would help.

 

Kev