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Fiat Ducato handbrakes
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userROND
Posted: 18 April 2007 5:27 PM
Subject: Fiat Ducato handbrakes
 
Visitor

Posts: 101
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My motorhome is due its first MOT so after first havng a full service i put it in for testing, result !!! failed due to poor handbrake.After going back to the Fiat main dealers thinking its a simple adjustment job and watching them work for at least 3 hours stripping the brakes to find them as new and adjusting as per book they then said the Ducato chasis is not built to take this weight and we wont get the brakes up to MOT standard !!!!!!!
The weight is MGVW 3850 k.
The problem was then passsed to the motorhome dealer who chased Autotrail who chased Fiat who then set up a case. The van went back to the Fiat dealer on instructions from Fiat who advised fitting new pads, the old pads were like new !!!
The result is a better brake, still to be MOTd though but i suspect by not quite following the book on adjustment as the fitter said it was being backed off too much and also fitting a different type shoe with what i suspect is softer material.
GAURANTEE !!!!!!!!!! not likely, the pads are £102 a set plus labour.
I think this is problem many could have with heavier vans as apparently so i was told by the garage they changed the braking system late 2003/4 and my motorhome was one of the first due for an MOT.
Happy ????? definately not and i shall be writing to Fiat UK complaining bittely. If you get chance have a rolling road test on your vehicles as thats the only time it shows up due to the figures they have to put in for the MOT and the percentages it has to reach.
userBasil
Posted: 18 April 2007 6:10 PM
Subject: RE: Fiat Ducato handbrakes
 
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Wieght of van!!! What possible effect is that going to have on the handbrake for MOT purposes, surely the handbrake is checked on the brake tester and is measured for its resistance to the torque put on to the wheels by the testing equipment. I can see no logical reason that the van wieght would affect that test in any shape or form.
Now if you were saying it would not hold on a hill I can see some possible merit in the weight of the vehicle having an effect, but even then I would have my doubts, but certainly not for the MOT test.

Bas
userTerrytraveller
Posted: 18 April 2007 7:03 PM
Subject: RE: Fiat Ducato handbrakes
 


Stalwart

Posts: 793
500100100252525
Location: Swindon, Bailey Pegasus 462


Just had the major MH service carried out at 22000 miles and watched them working on it. When the wheels came off, they clean up all the mechanism using some sort of specialist spirit, and deglaze the discs and drums as well as the pads and shoes.

I know from past experience when I serviced my own vehicles, deglazing all brake friction surfaces is a must and makes a really noticeable difference. If the pads have reached a very high temperature the material characteristics will alter and have a detrimental effect on braking efficiency. Rond, I wonder if they have been overheated at some time?

Anyone in the Swindon area can have a full wheels off service, all filters replaced and fully synthetic oil used for the engine for £169.00 at http://www.dmsautocentre.co.uk/ -

Over £300 at Brownhills just up the road from me - Yes - Honestly and there are people that pay it too


Regards Terry
userpaul2
Posted: 18 April 2007 7:22 PM
Subject: RE: Fiat Ducato handbrakes
 
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Posts: 105
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the brake test is all about weight the weight of the vehicle is divide by the force readings from the brake tester then multiplied by 100 gives you the percentage
Paul
userRonB
Posted: 18 April 2007 7:38 PM
Subject: RE: Fiat Ducato handbrakes
 
Frequent Contributor

Posts: 422
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On complaining about a poor handbrake on a previously owned 5000kg Tag Axle Fiat I was told that the chassis are all braked by Fiat as 3500kg and not modified by converters or AlKo for the higher weights. True or not, I don't really know, but it would seem to explain the problem.
userkeithzx12r
Posted: 18 April 2007 7:58 PM
Subject: RE: Fiat Ducato handbrakes
 
New User

Posts: 14



I had a 2003 Autosleeper Palermo on Peugeot 2.8 chassis which I assume is the same as the Fiat. I had a recall done by Peugeot because of the ineffective handbrake fitted. Is this anything to do with this problem? Keith
userJayKay
Posted: 18 April 2007 9:19 PM
Subject: RE: Fiat Ducato handbrakes
 


Visitor

Posts: 147
10025
Location: UK & Spain


We have a Hymer on a Fiat 2.8 chassis, 2004 vintage, just had it's first MOT and passed no problems but prior to the test I felt that the hand brake was not as efficient as it should be. Checked pads and braking system and was o.k. but the cable needed adjusting slightly more than suggested in the manual but now works to my satisfaction.

John D
userROND
Posted: 18 April 2007 9:26 PM
Subject: RE: Fiat Ducato handbrakes
 
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Posts: 101
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Some interesting replies,
Thank you Paul for clarifying the weight issue, using those figures 3850kg has to obtain 16% minimum on the rolling road so i was told and only ever reached 10%.
No the linings have never been overheated,certainly not to my knowledge and i have had it since new and yes the glaze was broken when the wheels come off.
Kiethzx an interesting one have you got any more info on the recall ?

RonB the garage did wonder how the big tag axles would fare in the MOT with such small brake linings, they are very small for the size vehicle.
Ron D
userROND
Posted: 18 April 2007 9:28 PM
Subject: RE: Fiat Ducato handbrakes
 
Visitor

Posts: 101
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JayKay - 2007-04-18 9:19 PM

We have a Hymer on a Fiat 2.8 chassis, 2004 vintage, just had it's first MOT and passed no problems but prior to the test I felt that the hand brake was not as efficient as it should be. Checked pads and braking system and was o.k. but the cable needed adjusting slightly more than suggested in the manual but now works to my satisfaction.

John D[/QUOTE
Interesting, is your Hymer over 3500kg or under ? as i was told the figures seem to be ok for under
userJayKay
Posted: 18 April 2007 9:48 PM
Subject: RE: Fiat Ducato handbrakes
 


Visitor

Posts: 147
10025
Location: UK & Spain


ROND,
Hymie is a slim under 3500kg, not quite reached middle age yet, the handbrake was not efficient if adjusted by the book but a slight over adjustment produced the effect I wanted.

John D
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 19 April 2007 1:11 PM
Subject: RE: Fiat Ducato handbrakes
 


500050001000100100252525
Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Hymer Exsis-i 578


Is this vehicle disc, or drum, braked on the rear axle?  I ask because ours is disc braked (with ABS), and the rear hub carries what is, in effect, a disc brake for normal stopping which incorporates a small, "parking brake", drum at its centre.  The handbook contains a warning never to apply this brake while the vehicle is moving.  Despite its small size, it has sufficient power to hold the van on all hills I have encountered, without the need to apply any great effort on the lever.

I assume the drum braked rear axle versions have a more conventional handbrake, operating the service brake shoes for parking purposes?

I am therefore puzzled by the references to "pads", which would usually imply disc brakes, not drums, and which if present, should be those for the service brake and not the handbrake.

If the handbrake shoes are those working inside the disc braked rear parking drum, provided the instruction never to apply these when the vehicle is moving has been observed, I would expect these to appear "as new", since they should only ever have been used to retain the vehicle once it has stopped, and not for stopping the moving vehicle.  If this is the case, there would seem no advantage from changing the shoes, since it would be the linkage, or its adjustment, that was defective.

If they are the brake shoes for a drum braked rear axle, and they appeared "as new", I'd suspect the rear brakes as a whole had never been properly effective.  Again, there would be no advantage to changing these for the reason stated above.  Not faulty shoes, but faulty brakes/adjustment.

However, have Autotrail modified the standard handbrake lever?  This is sometimes done to make seat swivelling possible, and might have the effect of reducing the efficiency of the lever so that it cannot work as designed.

userROND
Posted: 19 April 2007 3:16 PM
Subject: RE: Fiat Ducato handbrakes
 
Visitor

Posts: 101
100


Sorry Brian,
I am not that technicaly minded and yes they are i belive the same as yours discs with a drum and as you say they are brake shoes in the drum not pads and quite small. There was no wear on the shoes and they cleaned out the drums and broke the glaze on the shoes but they wouldnt hold. When in normal use they have seemed to hold ok on hills and never gave me any concern until on the rolling road.
Yes i would never use the handbrake to stop or slow down so they havent been misused. I honestly think that if put on a rolling road the day i bought it then the result would have been the same and it wouldnt have reached MOT standards.
RonD
userpaul2
Posted: 19 April 2007 9:58 PM
Subject: RE: Fiat Ducato handbrakes
 
Visitor

Posts: 105
100


Was the vehicle loaded or unloaded ? When we take a hgv for test we get much better brake reading with a loaded vehicle. If they are using the 3850kg for the calculation then its better to near the max weight than unladen Paul
usercolin
Posted: 19 April 2007 10:47 PM
Subject: RE: Fiat Ducato handbrakes
 


Stalwart

Posts: 5662
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Location: Bedfordshire, Globecar 636SB


Proboly not much use to you, but here is how I overcome a simileir problem.
My phaeton has a pretty useless handbrake, for the MOT I fit smaller dia wheels with cheapo tyres, on MOT tester pulls on handbrake, wheels lock and he complains that they have a low figure, I point out wheels are locked, he mumbles something and pass's it. Trouble is at 300bhp/ton its a hairy ride to test station, have to be very carefull with the throttle.
userROND
Posted: 19 April 2007 10:47 PM
Subject: RE: Fiat Ducato handbrakes
 
Visitor

Posts: 101
100


paul2 - 2007-04-19 9:58 PM

Was the vehicle loaded or unloaded ? When we take a hgv for test we get much better brake reading with a loaded vehicle. If they are using the 3850kg for the calculation then its better to near the max weight than unladen Paul



There was quite a bit of equipment on board but all tanks were empty except fuel. I am surprised at what you say i would have honestly thought it would have been better empty but there you are we learn somethng every day.
Many thanks
RonD
userpeter
Posted: 19 April 2007 11:38 PM
Subject: RE: Fiat Ducato handbrakes
 


Stalwart

Posts: 6472
500010001001001001002525
Location: Boston Linc's. Frankia i640SD 2014


Hi Rond. Check they are adjusted correctly. Just because the lever feels firm does not mean they are fully applied. Jack up a rear wheel and see if you can turn it. Then pull lever up a couple of notches and try again. It should be fully applied at about 6 notches at most. I can't be sure as I have not adjusted the ones on my Ducato, but usually there is a hole in the drum that you can put as screwdriver in and adjust the ratchet until the drum locks and then back it of a couple of clicks until it is free. The adjuster is usually at the bottom of the drum so you need to line the hole up here. You can see the adjuster through the hole with a torch or leadlight.
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