Mike P Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 In November I asked for advice regarding a water leak around the edge of one of the habitation windows on my 2008 Cheyenne 630 in partcular how to remove the inner casing containing the blind & flyscreen. I received lots of helpful advice (and the usual members managed to have a spat) which was useful but not directly relevant but thanks to those who gave constructive comment. Having failed to get a complete cure using Fernox L-X around the outer frame, I bit the bullet & decided to look deeper. The fixing screws securing the inner casing are accessed by removing the 1/4 round section perforated panels, one on each edge. These can be prised out using a sharp blade inserted in the front edge (flexibility helped using a hair dryer). This reveals twenty 30mm screws, 7 each top & bottom, 3 each side. On removing these and removing the blind unit it was obvious that these screws also pulled the outer frame into the bead of sealant on the body. I removed the Fernox and tried a dribble of Capt Tolly's creeping crack cure, a fair bit of which came straight through. It then struck me to check the pilot holes for the 20 screws where they screwed into the outer frame and here lay the problem. Although pilot holes had been drilled they were not deep enough, consequently although the screws felt tight they were not pulling the outer frame fully up to the body.Some judicious, very careful drilling with a suitable size drill modified the holes to allow the screws to pull fully home and bingo! a bead of Capt Tolly's sqeezed out of the top joint & stayed there indicating a complte seal. Excess was wiped off and everything re-assembled. The seal has had a good test in the recent rains and is now perfectly sound. Hope this might be of use to anyone with a similar problem and thanks once again to all those who offered advice. Mike P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolandrat Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 If what you have done has cured the water ingress problem it makes you wonder if there are more Auto-Trails out there with a similar problem. To have to do every drill hole again seems that the depth was planned originally by the production line operator, one hole not drilled through,ok, but not all. Perhaps an e-mail to Stuart Turpin might get you an answer. I know of other owners who have had unexplained water ingress around the window frames not because of faulty rubber seals as some have. It's through your persistence and diligence that you have got to the root of the problem and it could help other owners in the same boat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolandrat Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 If what you have done has cured the water ingress problem it makes you wonder if there are more Auto-Trails out there with a similar problem. To have to do every drill hole again seems that the depth was planned originally by the production line operator, one hole not drilled through,ok, but not all. Perhaps an e-mail to Stuart Turpin might get you an answer. I know of other owners who have had unexplained water ingress around the window frames not because of faulty rubber seals as some have. It's through your persistence and diligence that you have got to the root of the problem and it could help other owners in the same boat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 If I discovered that the depth of all the holes in the window's outer frame was inadequate for the 30mm-long fixing-screws to pull the frame tightly against the motorhome's bodywork, I'd probably ask myself whether the screw length was correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 personally i would be asking myself why I paid so much for such a shoddy build....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolandrat Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 Good point about the screws. Could the drill diameter been one of the problems as well, I know we are clutching at straws but there is usually a reason for these water ingress problems. Some Time ago Auto-Trail decided to stop using plastic framed windows and went on to aluminium because of a problem. I think it had something to do with going off alloy laminated side walls onto composite, (fibreglass) ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolandrat Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 Judge you've hit the nail on the head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolandrat Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 Judge you've hit the nail on the head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 Interesting. The windows should be weathertight as originally installed, and no proprietary goo should be required, or tolerated, to achieve that. From the description of what has been done, assuming I'm correctly understanding what is described, the window unit is in two parts that are screwed together to sandwich the wall and compress the manufacturer's supplied external seal sufficiently to produce a weathertight fit. So, if the screws bottom out in the pilot holes (presumed to be in the outer portion of the frame) before the seals are adequately clamped either the screws were too long (as Derek implies), or the wall sandwich, for some reason, was too thin. I doubt these screws are applied by hand, and would expect some kind of electric or pneumatic screwdriver to be used. For the most part, these are not particularly subtle devices, and I would expect some damage to the pilot holes to have resulted when the screws hit bottom. Probably some localised cracking. The frame has then be drilled deeper to accommodate the overly long screws. This may be adequate, or it may have slightly weakened the frame, possibly leading to cracking in future - plastics are funny stuff, and my experience of drilling pilot holes into plastics has not been entirely encouraging. However, what strikes me most, is that this is just one window, that has been (it seems) SEEN to leak. I would assume all windows are of the same make, that all screws are therefore likely to be of the same length, that all pilot holes will be of the same depth, and that all walls are of the same thickness. It therefore seems improbable that just this one window was badly fitted. I would suspect other windows must also be leaking in the same way, for the same reason, but possibly being smaller in size the leakage has not manifested inside the van. However, I would imagine it may well have cause wetting of the wall sandwich. It seems the original leak was noticed by Mike, and not picked up during a damp check, so I just wonder why that may have been, and whether similar, but less obvious, leakage around other windows may also have been missed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 maybe different length screws supplied with all window kits for different thickness's of walls..... wrong screws used? probably installed be clueless/untrained lad on work experience..... 8-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 funsters thread makes for some interesting reading.....warranty a joke at this price point.personally would be straight in contact with CIB/citizens direct and get a claim started. they seem pretty impervious to critisism as lots of evidence of shoddy workmanship...so this is the best of British!lol http://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/motorhome-chat/50159-autotrail-water-ingress.html as for £700 to reseal a window...when mine leaked (repaired under warranty) it took the tech 2 hours to strip out and refit..done while we waited at Belgium dealers on way to italy.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 Can't see it Eddie, it's behind a pay wall! :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roger20 Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 An interesting post Mike. I have a 2008 Tracker EKS and first tried the screw tightening 2/3 years ago. Fortunately we have not had any leaks and it was mainly to cure the dreadful noises! Worked at first (almost silent!) but as it was getting worse last year I tried again but it wasn't quite as successful this time so the screw bottoming is a useful new angle. We are away this week and I will look more closely when I get back. I seem to recall that they may have been conventionally threaded screws rather than self tappers which might suggested that they had perhaps been drilled and then tapped. I had thought that the next step was to remove and reseal the windows so perhaps this might be the answer. However there is a lot of body flexing so it might be that even continuous re-tightening will only delay the eventual re-compression of the mastic and re-loosening of the screws. If so and the mastic bead keeps getting thinner each time on each re-tighten then the screw bottoming may re-occur. If the window has been properly designed, screw-bottoming should only occur when the two halves are pulled tightly together without any mastic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 I think Mike's 2008 Cheyenne has Dometic-Seitz 'Series 6' windows. If that's correct, there are drawings here showing cross-sections of the window and the manner in which it's clamped to the vehicle. These seem to tally with Mike's description regarding the screws. http://www.leisurespares.co.uk/files/s6.pdf I can't find any on-line installation instructions for these windows, though there are 'repair' instructions here: http://www.leisurespares.co.uk/files/repair_s6-window.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 Brian Kirby - 2013-01-05 5:40 PM Can't see it Eddie, it's behind a pay wall! :-( google this wording and it will pop up and you will get in: autotrail water ingress warranty, how long Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 JudgeMental - 2013-01-05 6:27 PM Brian Kirby - 2013-01-05 5:40 PM Can't see it Eddie, it's behind a pay wall! :-( google this wording and it will pop up and you will get in: autotrail water ingress warranty, how long I suspect that Brian is getting the following message: "Hello there! It appears that you've exceeded the maximum number of posts that you can view as a guest here on Motorhomefun, but wait, there's a simple solution. To unlock the forum and continue viewing messages, all you need to do is sign up for a free account. The entire process takes just a minute and it is completely free so register here today and then join in the fun. Once you have completed the simple registration process you will be able view as many threads as you like! please do join us today Already a Funster? Then please login at the top of this page to stop seeing this message." Unlike this forum (or the MotorHomeFacts forum) MotorHomeFun seems to demand registration after an individual has carried out a limited number of 'viewings' (presumably the individual's IP address is recorded by the Fun software at the first viewing and this allows a subsequent 'block' to be imposed). Although registration is free, it's irritating to have to register if all that one wishes to do is view a Fun forum entry on the off-chance that it might possibly be of interest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 Brian followed the link I posted..which will do that if not registered so my fault. But if you just do as I say you will get in...I am registered but not a member, but I log in to view occasional but going through a google search as suggestead avoids this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 Using GOOGLE won't help someone who is not a registered FUN member and who has exceeded the permitted number of free 'views' allowed to a guest. A GOOGLE search using "autotrail water ingress warranty" will identify the same FUN motorhome-chat thread (number 50159) you gave a direct link to in your 5 January 2013 2:40 PM posting. However, in my case, attempting to access that thread from the GOOGLE results provokes the "Hello there! It appears that you've exceeded..." message. As I suggested earlier, this is likely to be because FUN stores IP addresses and 'knows' whether each address relates to a registered user or to a guest that's exceeded his/her viewing allowance. I'm a non-registered FUN guest and must have exceeded my viewing allowance some time in the distant past as I get the "Hello there!..." message. The best I can do is see FUN's Motorhome Chat listings of threads (currently 1027 pages in length) but, if I click on the title of any of those threads in the listings, I get the "Hello there!..." message. Obviously this won't happen to you as, even though you aren't a FUN full member (ie. a subscriber) you are registered and have unrestricted thread-viewing privileges. Assuming that it's my computer's IP address that's the show-stopper, I guess I could use another one (say one of our local library's) to acces FUN temporarily but, unless you can offer an alternative solution, unless I register on the FUN site I can't view Chat threads on my home computer. (The Wldcamping website seems to have a similar policy regarding 'guest viewing'.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 But I can't view web site normally without login...... Don't get me started on "wildcamping " they have been constantly spamming me for money since early December when I tried to find an overnight on south coast...awful people. Now that we are back from India have managed to remove myself from the database Has to be the most useless forum experience ever.....at least with fun and facts sites you can view content without becoming a full paying member *-) Reminds me why we all left MHF when all the information compiled by members contributions was effectively privatised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 JudgeMental - 2013-01-06 8:58 AM ...at least with fun and facts sites you can view content without becoming a full paying member... Yes, but a significant difference between the majority of forums and FUN/Wildcamping is that forum-viewing by 'guests'' is normally unrestricted, though registration will be required for forum-posting, with subscription perhaps being needed to obtain the website's full facilities. I don't much care what viewing/posting philosophy a website's owner chooses. It just means that, if there's a forum-viewing restriction and a link to a thread on that forum is provided (as you did), not everyone will be immediately able to access the material referenced by that link. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 you cant view any database content on wildcamping without paying up...on facts and fun you can. *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 Thank you for that clarification Eddie and Derek. I just got the message Derek reproduced, and assumed it was because of their pay wall. I remembered that a number of so called "Funsters" (debatable description, IMO :-)) had switched to this forum at the time MHF introduced membership charges, and assumed it was only accessible to paid up members. I am now clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roger20 Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 Just posting an update on this thread and my post over 12 months ago. Following advice that the holes in the frame may not be long enough I also drilled them out and found that I could get all the screws a bit tighter. However whilst this seemed to make things better after last years travels I did my usual damp test in October and for the first time found a slight leak in front corner of one of the big Seitz S5 front windows. Temporarily sealed it outside and dried it inside with a dehumidifier. The problem to me seems to be that the poor initial sealing (as a result of the screws bottoming) has led to some water getting in over time and there is no longer a bond between the frame and the body wall - the stiction between the butyl seal and frame/wall has gone. I think this has probably been exacerbated over the last 6 years by considerable flexing of the body and the camper chassis which doesn't have the heavyweight section of the ordinary chassis (although Fiat would no doubt say that the torsional twisting performance is at least as good?) So what to do now? I looked at the new Autotrails which use a different type of window and would seem to be fully (adhesive?) bonded in, as do a few of the caravans I looked at. I had a very useful conversation with a technician at my local caravan dealer and when I explained the problem he said that if it was his he would permanently bond it in. His alternative would be to put a butyl seal strip on the frame (they use IDL 311 which is what Bailey caravans recommend and IDL is also apparently the tape used by Autotrail when mine was built). He would then cover the tape with an adhesive sealant like Soudall RV61 to eliminate air pockets and then re-fit the window. For cleaning prior to sealant he said that panel wipes were preferable to IPA - he explained why but it lost me I'm afraid! I asked about using a semi-permanent product like RV61 and subsequent removal and he said this should not be a problem using a warm/hot blade to get an initial entry and then moving round keeping the blade warm with a hot air gun. This all seems to make sense to me and I am inclined toward just using RV61 as suggested. If its properly prepared the seal should be no different to the rest of the body fixed together by this approach. It should also improve the rigidity of the whole wall structure. My only slight doubt would be to wonder whether the plastic frame (as opposed to metal frames) need an element of flexibility given by butyl tape but this seems unlikely to me.......? Does anyone have any thoughts on this - if there is anyone out there who may be able to cast a professional eye over this problem I'm sure it would be appreciated by many of us. I would have thought there must be more owners of not just Autotrails who, if they haven't got an issue yet, will be facing it in the future. Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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