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3.5T+motorhomes with garage due for MOT
AuthorMessage
userdavenewell@home
Posted: 10 March 2010 6:27 PM
Subject: 3.5T+motorhomes with garage due for MOT
 


Stalwart

Posts: 3257
200010001001002525
Location: Shropshire. Motorhome= 1996 home converted Iveco


Hi guys, I was told today by our local MOT tester (they're on the same estate as us and do just about all our testing) to make sure that any motorhomes being submitted for test that are over 3500KGs MAM and have a garage are not carrying anything in the garage other than either clothes or items necessary for the day to day use of the motorhome, particularly no bikes or scooters/motorbikes. The reason was that VOSA have advised that such a setup would be construed as a commercial vehicle carrying goods and would therefore be subject to testing at a VOSA station only.

Not sure if this is accurate information, maybe a MOT tester can throw some light on it but its something to bear in mind if you have a +3.5T motorhome with a garage that is due for an MOT. Shouldn't be too difficult to remove everything from the garage just in case.

D.
userKeithl
Posted: 10 March 2010 8:29 PM
Subject: RE: 3.5T+motorhomes with garage due for MOT
 


2000100100
Location: Birmingham. 2004 Auto-Trail Cheyenne Mercedes 313.


Dave,

I've just received the Tax reminder for our M/H which is 3.8 T and it says at the bottom after Tax Class Private HGV "MOT certificate or, if the vehicle is carrying goods/burden not needed by the user for accommodation purposes on the vehicle, a goods vehicle test certificate".
I do not recall seeing this note before but assume it relates directly to your post.
In other words if you are carrying anything not related directly to "accommodation purposes on the vehicle" then your vehicle loses it's 'Motorcaravan' status and becomes a 'Goods' vehicle.
I think the motto here is 'Be warned'.

Keith.
userdavenewell@home
Posted: 10 March 2010 8:38 PM
Subject: RE: 3.5T+motorhomes with garage due for MOT
 


Stalwart

Posts: 3257
200010001001002525
Location: Shropshire. Motorhome= 1996 home converted Iveco


Precisely my reason for posting this Keith. Simplest to empty the garage for MOT time. Tester did say to me that if a VOSA examiner walked in while they were testing such a vehicle and there was so much as a push bike or generator in the "garage" then he could lose his testing licence but also the garage could lose its licence too.

D.
userThe Decorator
Posted: 10 March 2010 8:54 PM
Subject: RE: 3.5T+motorhomes with garage due for MOT
 
100
Location:


There must be some contradiction here between carrying a motorcycle inside or outside.

Does the owner have to carry the bike outside in the UK then move it inside when overseas?

Or is the ruling for test purposes only? Or am I just stupid?
userdavenewell@home
Posted: 10 March 2010 9:23 PM
Subject: RE: 3.5T+motorhomes with garage due for MOT
 


Stalwart

Posts: 3257
200010001001002525
Location: Shropshire. Motorhome= 1996 home converted Iveco


The Decorator - 2010-03-10 8:54 PM

There must be some contradiction here between carrying a motorcycle inside or outside.

Does the owner have to carry the bike outside in the UK then move it inside when overseas?

Or is the ruling for test purposes only? Or am I just stupid?


Do you really want an answer to that last part (that means I'm only kidding).

The difference is apparently that carrying anything inside the vehicle not specifically required for "accomodation" purposes in said vehicle renders it to be a "living van" rather than a motorhome. Living vans fall outside of the class four MOT test, under 3500KGs MAM will be subject to a class seven test, over 3500KGs MAM and it needs to go to a VOSA testing station for a HGV test.

That's my understanding, perhaps an actual MOT tester could clarify.

D.
userKeithl
Posted: 10 March 2010 9:32 PM
Subject: RE: 3.5T+motorhomes with garage due for MOT
 


2000100100
Location: Birmingham. 2004 Auto-Trail Cheyenne Mercedes 313.


Dave,

Ours is booked in for it's MOT this Friday lunchtime at a garage I've used for over 20 years so I'll ask the tester while I'm there. I'll let you all know what his interpretation is after I've spoken to him.

Keith.

PS I can recommend a good garage in Sutton Coldfield (NE B'ham) that does Class 4 and 7 tests and can accommodate vans up to 4 tonnes. PM me for details
userClive
Posted: 10 March 2010 10:16 PM
Subject: RE: 3.5T+motorhomes with garage due for MOT
 


Stalwart

Posts: 3138
2000100010025
Location: New Milton


Are there occasions when it may be beneficial to be classed as a commercial vehicle rather than a Motorhome?

C.
userAndy_C
Posted: 10 March 2010 10:41 PM
Subject: RE: 3.5T+motorhomes with garage due for MOT
 
Frequent Contributor

Posts: 470
1001001001002525
Location: Oxfordshire


Clive - 2010-03-10 10:16 PM

Are there occasions when it may be beneficial to be classed as a commercial vehicle rather than a Motorhome?

C.

Don't think so.

'Living vans' over 3500kg must be tested at a VOSA goods vehicle testing station under the Goods Vehicles (Plating and Testing) Regulations 1988, annually from the first year following registration. They would also need a speed limiter and tachograph, plus the driver would be subject to drivers hours regulations.

I'll need to chase up VOSA and the DfT on this 'new' approach. Last time I enquired, they told me that, as it was impossible for a testing station to tell whether anything carried in a motorhome was 'goods or burden which are not needed for the purpose of residence in the vehicle', it was up to the owner to declare whether any such items were being carried.

AndyC
usertakeaflight
Posted: 10 March 2010 11:50 PM
Subject: RE: 3.5T+motorhomes with garage due for MOT
 


Regular Visitor

Posts: 242
10010025


Had MOT yesterday Hymer B700 over 3.5t and garage, nothing was mentioned.
Roy
userMandy&Andy
Posted: 11 March 2010 5:13 AM
Subject: RE: 3.5T+motorhomes with garage due for MOT
 


Stalwart

Posts: 958
5001001001001002525
Location: Northants


Had MOT done on ours on Tuesday, over 3500 and having its first test at 3 years old, also has large full garage, nothing mentioned.

Cost £54

Mandy
userThe Decorator
Posted: 11 March 2010 10:58 AM
Subject: RE: 3.5T+motorhomes with garage due for MOT
 
100
Location:


Dave,

My apologies, I never consider anyone one is kidding, I accept what is said as an open comment regardless of who it is and especially you.

The thought arose so I put it forward, it's just a thought and perhaps the difference in law might arise, who knows.

Hell, every time I pass an open opinion I antagonise someone, I'm one of life eccentic odd balls and say exactly as I please and I doubt I shall change.

Jon



Edited by The Decorator 2010-03-11 11:09 AM
userUsinmyknaus
Posted: 11 March 2010 12:21 PM
Subject: RE: 3.5T+motorhomes with garage due for MOT
 
Stalwart

Posts: 1237
100010010025
Location: Surrey. Knaus/Renault


Timely warning thanks Dave. I had planned on uprating mine to 3850Kg when I need extra payload for long-term touring but I now should think again in view of what Andy C said.

It will be interesting to see on this thread whether anyone already affected by the new rule obtains definitive guidance.

Bob

Edited by Usinmyknaus 2010-03-11 12:40 PM
userAndy_C
Posted: 11 March 2010 1:44 PM
Subject: RE: 3.5T+motorhomes with garage due for MOT
 
Frequent Contributor

Posts: 470
1001001001002525
Location: Oxfordshire


Usinmyknaus - 2010-03-11 12:21 PM

Timely warning thanks Dave. I had planned on uprating mine to 3850Kg when I need extra payload for long-term touring but I now should think again in view of what Andy C said.

It will be interesting to see on this thread whether anyone already affected by the new rule obtains definitive guidance.

Bob

I'm trying to find out what sort of new guidance has been issued to testing centres.

Living vans are normally the sort of vehicles used by race teams, where there is both accommodation and, for example, workshop facilities. A motorhome (over 3.5t) with a garage could also be classified as a living van if, say, it was used by a trader to carry stock etc. to a motorhome show.

The DfT told me back in 2006: [as far as motorhomes over 3.5T are concerned] "It is up to the vehicle owner to declare whether the vehicle is used for carrying goods or not. VOSA would not be in a position to determine this at the time the vehicle is presented for test as they will not know the use to which the vehicle is being put"

AndyC

userBasil
Posted: 11 March 2010 3:11 PM
Subject: RE: 3.5T+motorhomes with garage due for MOT
 
20001001001002525


There is clearly something afoot as my 4x4 pickup is going in for MOT tomorrow at a friends garage. When I booked it in I was told it may be the last time he can do it as there are changes to MOT testing requirements for all 'dual purpose' vehicles which apparently SUV's come under, changing the class under which they can test (currently class 4).
I'll see if I can find anything out tomorrow

Bas
userUsinmyknaus
Posted: 12 March 2010 11:17 AM
Subject: RE: 3.5T+motorhomes with garage due for MOT
 
Stalwart

Posts: 1237
100010010025
Location: Surrey. Knaus/Renault


Andy_C - 2010-03-11 1:44 PM

Usinmyknaus - 2010-03-11 12:21 PM

Timely warning thanks Dave. I had planned on uprating mine to 3850Kg when I need extra payload for long-term touring but I now should think again in view of what Andy C said.

It will be interesting to see on this thread whether anyone already affected by the new rule obtains definitive guidance.

Bob

I'm trying to find out what sort of new guidance has been issued to testing centres.

Living vans are normally the sort of vehicles used by race teams, where there is both accommodation and, for example, workshop facilities. A motorhome (over 3.5t) with a garage could also be classified as a living van if, say, it was used by a trader to carry stock etc. to a motorhome show.

The DfT told me back in 2006: [as far as motorhomes over 3.5T are concerned] "It is up to the vehicle owner to declare whether the vehicle is used for carrying goods or not. VOSA would not be in a position to determine this at the time the vehicle is presented for test as they will not know the use to which the vehicle is being put"

AndyC



Thanks Andy.

Re-reading Dave's third post on the thread may generate a shiver in the waters of anyone with an on-board garage or similar storage:

"The difference is apparently that carrying anything inside the vehicle not specifically required for "accomodation" purposes in said vehicle renders it to be a "living van" rather than a motorhome. Living vans fall outside of the class four MOT test, under 3500KGs MAM will be subject to a class seven test, over 3500KGs MAM and it needs to go to a VOSA testing station for a HGV test. "

His point about under 3500Kg needing a class 7 test rather than a class 4 test suggests this issue could affect many under 3500 Kg vans now, never mind heavier vehicles. There has to be a small risk too that if items of portable kit and say, a motor-cycle rack are removed from a van just to secure a standard test, if the van is subsequently pulled at a road-side VOSA check, a hard-line Inspector might hold that the presence of such items means the vehicle is illegal because it has the wrong class of test certificate and moreover, is consequently uninsured. Similarly, if he/she is a crusading type and obtains evidence that items had been removed for the purpose of obtaining a lower-class of test, he/she might argue the class 4 certificate was obtained fraudulently.

I have no idea what the implications of a class 7 mot would be but I hope you are told that what the DfT told you in 2006 still holds good as, on that basis I will be happy to stick with a normal MOT, from a standard source. There's plenty of paperwork, expense and rules to follow with a motorhome as it is, without VOSA complicating things further.

Bob
userFreewheeler
Posted: 12 March 2010 5:18 PM
Subject: RE: 3.5T+motorhomes with garage due for MOT
 
2525


Andy_C - 2010-03-11 1:44 PM

I'm trying to find out what sort of new guidance has been issued to testing centres.

Living vans are normally the sort of vehicles used by race teams, where there is both accommodation and, for example, workshop facilities. A motorhome (over 3.5t) with a garage could also be classified as a living van if, say, it was used by a trader to carry stock etc. to a motorhome show.

The DfT told me back in 2006: [as far as motorhomes over 3.5T are concerned] "It is up to the vehicle owner to declare whether the vehicle is used for carrying goods or not. VOSA would not be in a position to determine this at the time the vehicle is presented for test as they will not know the use to which the vehicle is being put"

AndyC



I believe that it's all down to interpretation, and Andy is about right.
Reading the MOT guideline document, "Living vans" are as Andy describes.
Many organisations use them in a similar way, they are NOT motorhomes.

I can think of several other examples, Manufacturers cycling team support, Police incident vehicles, Motorhome dealership and other trade use at shows etc.

The difference being that these type of vehicles are NOT for private use.
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 12 March 2010 7:38 PM
Subject: RE: 3.5T+motorhomes with garage due for MOT
 


500050001000100100100252525
Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Hymer Exsis-i 578


It seems this has been aired previously, on UK motorhomes.net.  Follow this link for  exhaustive replies from VOSA and DfT.  http://tinyurl.com/yz8n3ty

Hope this helps clarify, and top marks to UKmotorhomes for their patient persistence.  For any further clarifications, I suggest following up with Rob Haggar at the DfT - assuming he is still there!

It's just a shame UL motorhomes replicated the texts without the references.  Maybe they could retrieve the actual documents for anyone who feels they may need hard copies to wave at testers.

userUsinmyknaus
Posted: 15 March 2010 9:59 AM
Subject: RE: 3.5T+motorhomes with garage due for MOT
 
Stalwart

Posts: 1237
100010010025
Location: Surrey. Knaus/Renault


So it seems that affected owners of sub 3500 Kg vans can declare to the test station that the vehicle is not used for the carriage of goods and so obtain a class 4 cert as now and that statement should be accepted by the testing station. That helps.

However, from the DfT's comments, there remains, as I earlier surmised, a risk, albeit very small, that a police or VOSA roadside check could lead to an owner being accused of driving an illegal vehicle. Logic suggests that such a charge would be more likely to be made, and to succeed in court, if the motorhome had been adapted to carry specific "goods", such as motorbike or car e.g by the fitting of a bespoke rack such as the Fiamma "Carry Moto", for example. The greatest part of that small risk of prosecution of course, is the expense of having to defend oneself in court, given that legal aid is pretty much unobtainable for motoring offences and the trend for our legal system to presume motorists guilty unless they can prove themselves innocent and even then, deny them costs if they win against the might of the CPS. The system relies too on the fact that the majority of motorists unjustly accused of an offence will plead guilty and pay up rather than fight.

I am minded to remove the scooter rack from my van's garage and stick to a single pedalec bicycle, secured on standard luggage tie-downs, on the basis that Murphy's Law applies to me in spades - based on rather more than 50 year's experience of the working of said law.

Bob

Edited by Usinmyknaus 2010-03-15 10:16 AM
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 15 March 2010 2:44 PM
Subject: RE: 3.5T+motorhomes with garage due for MOT
 


500050001000100100100252525
Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Hymer Exsis-i 578


I think you're worrying too much, Bob!  Easy for me, I know, as I don't carry a scooter/motorbike. 

However, have a look at your V5C and, at section 4 D.3 "Body Type", it should say "Motor Caravan".  So, what you are actually carrying is personal possessions ancillary to your use of the vehicle as a motor caravan, and not goods connected with your trade or profession. 

If you are retired, you have no trade or profession, so the claim that the contents of your boot constituted "goods or burden" would appear even more farcical.  The bike, or scooter, is presumably registered and insured by you, so is demonstrably your private property, just as a pair of walking boots would be.

I don't think anyone would risk career stopping ridicule by bringing so transparently daft a prosecution.  There are certain things a motorhome must have, but there is no definition of what it must not have.  If the insurance is for anything other than "use for social, domestic and pleasure purposes by the insured or any other driver authorised to drive", or similar, you may have a bit of a problem.

If it says "including use in connection with the insured's business or profession", and you happen to own a motorbike shop and have an unregistered motorbike in the back, you may have quite a bit of a problem, and I think it would then be taken to indicate you are using it for delivering motorbikes, which would be "goods or burden".  Then, it would appear it may have become a living van. 

However, even then, it would surely have to be proved that this was its normal mode of use, as opposed to being a one off favour for a customer.  Take a copy of the linked document to carry with you if still worried, and in any case empty the van when it goes for testing.  I don't think it is a good idea to take loaded vehicles to garages or testing stations, it is unfair to the business concerned, just in case.

userthebishbus
Posted: 15 March 2010 3:38 PM
Subject: RE: 3.5T+motorhomes with garage due for MOT
 
Stalwart

Posts: 646
50010025
Location: Warwickshire 01 Hymer 584


Surely the point here is that Motor Caravans are Private, and not goods for MOT purposes, and therefore subject to class 4 or 5 depending on their seating capacity, but regardless of size or weight. Incidentally I noticed the article mentioned by Brian, is dated 2006, have there been any up-dates. ? Brian.
userAndy_C
Posted: 15 March 2010 9:22 PM
Subject: RE: 3.5T+motorhomes with garage due for MOT
 
Frequent Contributor

Posts: 470
1001001001002525
Location: Oxfordshire


thebishbus - 2010-03-15 3:38 PM

Surely the point here is that Motor Caravans are Private, and not goods for MOT purposes, and therefore subject to class 4 or 5 depending on their seating capacity, but regardless of size or weight. Incidentally I noticed the article mentioned by Brian, is dated 2006, have there been any up-dates. ? Brian.


I'm waiting for the DfT to get back to me :)

AndyC
(owner of www.ukmotorhomes.net)
userthebishbus
Posted: 16 March 2010 8:19 AM
Subject: RE: 3.5T+motorhomes with garage due for MOT
 
Stalwart

Posts: 646
50010025
Location: Warwickshire 01 Hymer 584


Thank's Andy, I will keep watching.
Regards. Brian.



userUsinmyknaus
Posted: 16 March 2010 5:23 PM
Subject: RE: 3.5T+motorhomes with garage due for MOT
 
Stalwart

Posts: 1237
100010010025
Location: Surrey. Knaus/Renault


Thanks Brian, all good points, I agree with your approach it's just that I have learned never to underestimate the capacity of the bureaucratic mind to make bizarre determinations, hence my caution. I always empty the garage for the reasons you say as well as not to inconvenience the tall bloke weilding spanners as he services the van so I don't expect a problem at the actual test. I'll take my chances on the road after that.

Will still watch with interest for any formal answer given to Andy.

Bob
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