'Chipping'?

[Madmaggott]

We like Autotrail motorhomes but feel that the Fiat 2.3 130bhp engine that is now fitted may be underpowered for the fairly heavy modern vehicles.  Although the upgraded 150bhp engine is an option from new we have not seen a 2nd hand one for sale.

Does anyone have experience of 'chipping or remapping' their engine as my hubby has suggested just buying the std 130bhp vehicle and then having this done.  I am a bit cautious about 'messing' with the engine; would it give better fuel economy or only better performance; or, would it give better performance but worse economy?

Anyone have experience on this? or anyone with the basic 2.3 130bhp is it underpowered in your opinion, on which model? 

 

[Brian Kirby]

There are no free lunches!  :-)  Chipping can be carried out to improve power, or economy.  You say you think you will need extra power, because the van will be large and heavy.  If you unleash that extra power, it will inevitably use more fuel.  There may be some incidental economy gain from the remapping, but the odds are it will be no more economical than it would have without the remap, and may well be less economical overall.  How much worse will depend on how you drive it, and how often you exploit the extra power. 

However, sticking a small engine in a big van is also a recipe for poor economy, because the engine has to be worked hard to shift the bulk/weight of the van.  The point is that these are truck engines, which are built and tuned primarily for endurance, not for economy or performance.  They are also equipped to be driven as supplied so, when modified for more power, if that power is fully exploited - say on long uphill motorway stretches - both coolant and oil will be getting hotter than the design contemplated.  If the power is used in short bursts fine, but keeping the tap fully on risks undesirable consequences, sooner or later. 

Bear in mind that the vehicle is already being asked to operate heavier, on average, than the panel van from which it is derived, and is also bulkier, so the wind resistance is always greater.  So, it is already working harder than the design contemplated, and then you chip it for more power.  In effect you will be working it very hard.

Part of the reason the 150HP versions cost more is that they are designed to transmit 150HP day in and day out, and to dissipate the heat from 150Hp working.  IMO, if you want a van over 3.5 tonnes MAM, especially if it is an overcab bed layout, you will need the 150HP version, and if it is a SEVEL van, you should, in any case, get an automatic to have the best chance of avoiding the judder.  So, if SEVEL, 150HP auto, or nothing.  Mind, that's just my opinion!

[colin]

It's not just weight but wind resistance you need to think about, if you are happy to cruise at 60mph in a 3.5t overcab then IMO the 130bhp engine is up to the job.

[Madmaggott]

Our current van is on a Renault Master chassis with 2.5cc engine.  I don't know what the bhp is.

My OH, who does most of the driving, feels that it needs a bit more umph uphill.  On our recent trip to France we got 30mpg which I feel is reasonable for the vehicle, we drive at a steady pace.

Our concern is that the reviews that we have seen on the Autotrails all suggest that the upgrade is desirable but, as I said above, we have not found any, either 09 used or 2010 new, that have the 150bhp engine.

If we do buy a new MH it will have to last for a long, long time so we need to get it right this time.

 

[Stewart Hendry]

We have a 2006 Autocruise Starburst 2.2 100bhp which was remapped last year by Cartech (mobile service). The reason for this was on our trips to France fully loaded with a Honda scooter on the back (Easylifter rack) it laboured up some of the hills. Hill starts were also a bit testing pre remapping.

It cost £299, with power increased to 130 bhp and the extra horses made life easier with fewer gear changes. Speed wasn't what we were looking for as we were never in a hurry but if any extra acceleration was needed the power was there. MPG pre remapping was more often30 -31 mpg on longer runs, whereas now it fluctuates more from 28 - 32 mpg but overall I would say mpg will suffer a bit.

My wife insisted I tell the insurance company (Caravan guard) which I did on renewal this year and whilst they referred this to their underwriters it was accepted. Any increase in power over 30% may cause difficulties in this area though. The remappers will tell you that the new ECU prog is not detectable but my other half wanted this above board with the insurers. I know pleanty who will not disclose remapping to the insurers.

I have a disc from Cartech with all of the original settings so I can return it to as it was if I wish.

Hope this helps, Stewart

[flicka]

Hi Madmaggott

The consideration usually overlooked is braking.

Don't forget the manufacturer has matched the braking capability of the vehicle to the available BHP.

A small increase in power should make negligable difference, but there will be a point where increased power output will wxceed the braking capability.

Check with your insurance company what / if increase in BHP they will accept, before proceeding.

[nowtelse2do]

I Don't think there would be to much problem there Flicka, the Train weight will be well over the 3.5t weight so brakes should be up to the job, unless it is an automatic then that's a different story.

Dave

[George Collings]

The standard advice if a car is tuned is to upgrade the brakes as one would expect it to be driven hard.

 

Commercial vehicle brakes are matched to GVW and overheating would only be only be a problem if the driver continually accelerates and brakes. It's hardly the way anyone in their right mind drives a motorcaravan so The standard brakes should be up to the job.

[Bulletguy]

Madmaggott - 2010-06-16 4:53 PMWe like Autotrail motorhomes but feel that the Fiat 2.3 130bhp engine that is now fitted may be underpowered for the fairly heavy modern vehicles.  Although the upgraded 150bhp engine is an option from new we have not seen a 2nd hand one for sale.

Does anyone have experience of 'chipping or remapping' their engine as my hubby has suggested just buying the std 130bhp vehicle and then having this done.  I am a bit cautious about 'messing' with the engine.......

You have every right to be cautious about 'messing'.Fortunately I quote not from a personal experience, but from someone off another forum who did have.This particular guy had a Mercedes engined motorhome which suddenly went bang somewhere in France or Spain last year. Towed into a Merc Garage where the engine was stripped down only to discover a holed piston. He was told the engine would need to be replaced and Merc do not do recon engines, so it would be a new one.Cost including labour? £11,500 :-(He had no choice other than to cough up the cash, but did manage to bring the knackered engine back to the UK where he took it to Merc with the hope of getting some kind of recompence.Their engineers examined everything and it was found the electronics had been 'chipped' (unknown to this guy who had bought it from a friend). The end result being Merc would not compensate. My advice to you would be to go to Fiat and ask them first BEFORE proceeding with anything like this. If they agree that it will be fine/ok.....ask them to put it in writing. You MUST have some kind of warranty otherwise it could prove to be a very expensive risk to take.

[Bulletguy]

Stewart Hendry - 2010-06-16 9:59 PM

 

We have a 2006 Autocruise Starburst 2.2 100bhp which was remapped....

 

My wife insisted I tell the insurance company (Caravan guard) which I did on renewal this year and whilst they referred this to their underwriters it was accepted.

 

The remappers will tell you that the new ECU prog is not detectable but my other half wanted this above board with the insurers. I know plenty who will not disclose remapping to the insurers.

 

Your wife is a sensible woman!

 

Failure to disclose ANY modification no matter how insignificant it may be could result in an insurance being declared void.

 

Anything which is 'non standard production', i.e. as fitted by the manufacturer can fall into the category of a 'modification'.

 

I was once told by a local tyre fitter about a very sad experience where a guy had his car written off in an accident. His insurance company sent out an assessor who discovered the car was fitted with tyres which were not to the original manufactures spec for the vehicle. They were lower rated. The insurance refused to pay out so he lost everything.

 

Not all insurance companies are quite so 'picky' but it's always wise to check first if you are making ANY change.

[lennyhb]

I wouldn't risk chipping a new vehicle still under warranty not worth the risk. Even if a failure is nothing to do with chipping the manufacturer will not pay up.

 

Although we only have a low profile we always run on the 3500kg limit & the 2.3 has plenty of power easily pulls the van up to 100mph (not to be recommended without brown trousers) & loads of power for overtaking.

 

 

[leon]

lennyhb - 2010-07-06 5:06 PM

 

I wouldn't risk chipping a new vehicle still under warranty not worth the risk. Even if a failure is nothing to do with chipping the manufacturer will not pay up.

 

Although we only have a low profile we always run on the 3500kg limit & the 2.3 has plenty of power easily pulls the van up to 100mph (not to be recommended without brown trousers) & loads of power for overtaking.

 

that is a very good point, it would probably void the manufacturer warrenty

[Wallynnette]

We have an Autotrail 2.3 Fiat and we found it pulled ok, but that was it just ok, I found this gadget by accident, go to the site and have a look www.energytuning.co.uk. I bought one and couldn't believe the difference it made, we toured all over Wales the other month and found it was so relaxing driving, hardly any gear changes,more power better fuel consumption ( due to not needing to change gear so often ). It was like putting a different engine in for each stage of the trip, with 9 different settings to choose from and the ability to switch it off it beats 'chipping/mapping hands down, and when you do switch it off you really realise how lathargic your engine really is, and you can take it out and put on another engine if you wish. Personally I can't praise it enough and would highly reccomend it, so have a study on the site, Darren, the business owner is very helpfull so if you have any queries give him a bell. :-D

[Madmaggott]

Sounds good, can I ask what sort of price it was?

 

[Wallynnette]

He did me a good deal, proper price is about £250 with 25% off for caravan club members. As we don't belong to that club anymore we had a show offer, ours was just under £160 but I believe sales have rocketed and now has to charge a little more on show offers to cover the dreaded VAT ( before he used to swallow that to get the business going). This is British made and not a foriegn one and rebadged. I found that most of the others selling this type of thing claim how much fuel you'll save, but Darren doesn't because he doesn't know what state your engine is in, or how you as an individual drive etc etc, check out the site and give him a bell. :-D B-)

[Melvin]

I am having my 2.3 Fiat Autotrail remapped by Booster,s on the 12th when they are setting up at the Malvern Show, my insurance company Saga uped my insurance by just over £60. We have moved to Wales and tow a Toyota Aygo on a A frame, on the step narrow hills we are down to second gear.

[Colin Leake]

Don't do it. I personally know one owner who had a chipped engine blow and one who had the turbo go. On cars chips are normally fine for the simple reason that you are hardly ever using the extra power the chip delivers and even then most likely only briefly when accelerating hard. given the performance of modern diesel cars and the state of UK traffic I can't see the sense in them but at least they should not harm the engine.

 

With heavy large motorhomes it is an entirely different kettle of fish. Running into a strong head wind at speed or climbing a long steep hill you could be using the extra power for a considerable period of time and subjecting the engine to stresses it was never intended to handle. Using cruise control may make matters worse because the cruise control can be calling on that extra power and you won't even be aware of it.

 

You will certainly invalidate your warranty. The manufacturers are not fools. Certain types of failure will automatically lead them to look for chips or evidence of tampering with the original vehicle management system and they will find it.

 

The fact is that 130 bhp is more than able to deal with the requirements of the modern motorhome. Chip the engine for extra power and you 'may' save a few gear changes and you 'may' cut a few minutes off your journey time but any savings are hardly worth the cost and certainly not worth the risk.

[Melvin]

Melvin - 2010-08-04 7:45 PM

 

I am having my 2.3 Fiat Autotrail remapped by Booster,s on the 12th when they are setting up at the Malvern Show, my insurance company Saga uped my insurance by just over £60. We have moved to Wales and tow a Toyota Aygo on a A frame, on the step narrow hills we are down to second gear.

 

Motorhome now been remapped and to be honest, I am a little disapointed, it feels much the same. Was I expecting too much ?

[Derek Uzzell]

Melvin - 2010-08-13 6:20 PM

 

Melvin - 2010-08-04 7:45 PM

 

I am having my 2.3 Fiat Autotrail remapped by Booster,s on the 12th when they are setting up at the Malvern Show, my insurance company Saga uped my insurance by just over £60. We have moved to Wales and tow a Toyota Aygo on a A frame, on the step narrow hills we are down to second gear.

 

Motorhome now been remapped and to be honest, I am a little disapointed, it feels much the same. Was I expecting too much ?

 

 

Boosters’ website claims that they can “...remap your average car to improve the torque and power by at least 25% to 35% or more dependent on vehicle”. On that basis, I would have thought you should be able to notice a significant hike in performance after the re-mapping. I see from the following thread (that includes postings from Boosters) that there may be some sort of 30-day ‘warranty’, so, if you aren’t satisfied, you may want to take the matter up with the company.

 

http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftoptitle-86172-boostersuk-remap-renault-master-25l-120dci-quickshift6.html

 

I believe it was Laurence Pomeroy who said that, if you’ve had a vehicle ‘tuned’ for extra power and you can’t immediately notice an improvement in performance afterwards, then you’ve wasted your money. For motorhomes, the only way to be certain of the effect of tuning is to take before-and-after power-output measurements on a rolling-road dynamometer as used to happen with TB Turbo when they were trading.

 

It also needs saying that, even though the diesel motors fitted to modern vehicles are far more powerful than those of yesteryear, when you’ve got a 3-tonne motorhome dragging a 1-tonne car, and just 22287cc, 130bhp and 320Nm to play with, the ensemble is never going to be a scorching ball of fire on steep narrow roads. If you were anticipating being able to romp up hills in 3rd gear that you previously needed 2nd to climb sedately, then you were undoubtedly expecting too much of what was probably a fairly conservative re-map by Boosters. Having said that, you might find that substantial extra power is there, just lurking further up the rev range. Try using plenty of revs and see what that feels like.

[Melvin]

Boosters are going to give me a follow up call on Monday to see if I am happy ? We have seen the computer torque curve, which come in considerably earlier than Fiats and much flatter, with a substantial gain (400 + as opposed to 320). Boosters have a good reputation, with many customer more than happy, all having noticed substantial gains in performance.

 

We have not towed our Toyota Aygo following the remapping, we have only tested the motorhome solo, based on this I was expecting a noticable increase in performance or is it my driving style, I tend to change up early, than let the engine labour in a high gear.

[Derek Uzzell]

Melvin - 2010-08-14 10:54 AM

 

...is it my driving style, I tend to change up early, than let the engine labour in a high gear.

 

Yes it is, and it may have some bearing on why you felt a need to have your vehicle's motor remapped.

 

If a driver deliberately adopts an unkind driving style where the vehicle is unable to accelerate when he/she depresses the accelerator because the motor is running uncomfortably slowly, then remapping is unlikely to be worthwhile.

 

Fiat's states peak torque for your motor as 320Nm from 2000rpm-3000rpm and peak power as 130bhp at 3600rpm. If you've developed a habit of 'short-shifting' and then allowing the motor to labour, irrespective of driving conditions, then you aren't exploiting the motor's performance potential. Essentially, you need to re-train yourself to use more revs and to change to a higher gear later.

 

Take your motorhome to a some flat open road, select 1st-gear, get the vehicle moving until the rev-counter reads, say, 1500rpm, then depress the accelerator fully. Keep the accelerator flat to the floor until the rev-counter reads 4000rpm, then shift to 2nd-gear and depress the accelerator fully again. When the motor again reaches 4000rpm, shift to 3rd-gear. Continue this sequence using as many higher gears as the road conditions will allow. At least then you'll know what your motor is capable of when it isn't labouring at low revs in too high gears.

[Melvin]

Melvin - 2010-08-14 10:54 AM

 

.

 

We have not towed our Toyota Aygo following the remapping, we have only tested the motorhome solo, based on this I was expecting a noticable increase in performance or is it my driving style, I tend to change up early, than let the engine labour in a high gear.

 

Derek

 

I shoud have stated " I tend to change DOWN early, RATHER than let the engine labour in a high gear", I anticipate the road conditions ahead (i.e incline), and give it some welly

[Derek Uzzell]

Melvin - 2010-08-16 10:31 AM

 

Melvin - 2010-08-14 10:54 AM

 

.

 

We have not towed our Toyota Aygo following the remapping, we have only tested the motorhome solo, based on this I was expecting a noticable increase in performance or is it my driving style, I tend to change up early, than let the engine labour in a high gear.

 

Derek

 

I shoud have stated " I tend to change DOWN early, RATHER than let the engine labour in a high gear", I anticipate the road conditions ahead (i.e incline), and give it some welly

 

OK (and thanks for the PM). I still think that, if your motor has genuinely got an extra 80Nm, then that additional oomph should be pretty evident. 400Nm is the quoted maximum torque output of a Fiat 3.0litre 160 Multijet and the pulling power of that motor is noticeably superior to a standard 130's.

 

In October 2008 the French motorhome magazine "Le Monde du Camping-Car" (LMdCC) published an article on re-mapping. Before-and-after performance figures were given for sample motorhomes fitted with Ford 2.2litre (130bhp), Renault 2.5litre (150bhp) or Fiat 2.3litre Multijet (130bhp) powerplants. In the last case, output increases from 320Nm to 370Nm and 130bhp to 156bhp were quoted. Acceleration from 0-100km/h improved from 22.4secs to 17.5secs and from a steady speed of 90km/h to 110km/h from 14.9secs to 10.4secs. A significant drop in fuel consumption was also reported. The re-mapping was carried out by a company called Flash Tuning

 

http://www.flashtuning.fr/

 

and the LMdCC report (and others) can be viewed in the "Essai Presse" section of that website. I just mention this as Flash Tuning's quoted output-increase figures are below Boosters', but the measured 'on the road' performance improvements in acceleration after Flash Tuning's re-mapping exercise (and the article's comments), suggest that a driver should easily be able to notice an improvement in motor performance.

[Melvin]

Derek,

 

Following your advice, I tested the motorhome on my local familiar roads as a benchmark and still could no measurable improvement, also coming back from the Malverns no difference in fuel consumption.

 

As promised Alex has Boostersuk has followed up with a courtesy call to see if I was happy with the remapping. Alex is more than happy to re-look at the mapping, and if necessary make some alteration to the setting.

 

We are taking the motorhome (towing the Aygo) to cornwall at the end of the month, this should be a better benchmarkand show up any shortcomings

[Derek Uzzell]

Hmmm...

 

I suppose there's always the faint possibility that there's something basically wrong with your Ducato that is preventing the motor realising maximum power. If that were the case, it might explain why you felt a need for more torque and why the Boosters re-mapping doesn't seem to have provided any benefit.

 

My own motorhome developed a fault that stuck the turbo in low-boost mode. Performance was noticeably lacking, but no amount of 'tuning' would have improved matters unless the turbo-related problem was first addressed.

 

This is why TB Turbo's before-and-after output-testing on a dynamometer approach was so valuable. If, say, a Ducato 2.3 Multijet produced a measured 130bhp to begin with and, after tuning, produced 160bhp, then you knew a) that the vehicle started out having Fiat's standard maximum power output and b) that the tuning process had increased that output by 23%. Otherwise, on-the-road testing of the type carried out by the French magazine I mentioned earlier will reveal performance changes.

 

I'm doubtful that, if power increases are relatively small, that the driver will be able to detect them easily just by 'feel', but the 25% increase in torque/bhp that Boosters suggests as the norm should really be immediately identifiable. Certainly, after my motorhome's turbo problem had been rectified, the vehicle's performance was transformed and the improvement was obviois.

 

Re-mapping (or 'chipping') is only likely to improve fuel consumption if the driver exploits increased torque by holding high gears longer. If he/she uses the motor's extra oomph to cover ground significantly faster, then fuel consumption may well worsen.