Pampam Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Am i true in hearing the russians have shot down a passenger jet going from amsterdam to kuala lumpur???? Appalled pp:( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Pampam - 2014-07-17 9:08 PM Am i true in hearing the russians have shot down a passenger jet going from amsterdam to kuala lumpur???? Appalled pp:( Not heard that. I have heard that a plane has crashed - possibly/ probably shot down - don't yet know for sure who did it. :-| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Apparently earlier the pro russians claimed to have shot down a Ukrainian transport plane, that claim has now been withdrawn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 Malaysia jet crash: Ukraine releases alleged intercepts Thursday, July 17, 2014 Both sides in Ukraine's civil conflict have accused each other of shooting the jet down with a missile Ukrainian authorities have released what they say are intercepted phone conversations between pro-Russian separatists and what appear to be Russian military officers saying that separatists shot down Malaysia Airlines flight MH17. The Ukrainian Security Service put the Russian-language conversations on YouTube within hours of the crash. The veracity of the recordings cannot be confirmed, First recording [Male voice, identified as separatist leader Igor Bezler] The group of the Miner [an alias] has just shot down a plane, which came down just behind Yenakiyevo. [Col Geranin] Pilots. Where are the pilots? [bezler] Gone to search for and photograph the plane. It's smoking. [second male voice, identified as Russian military intelligence Colonel Vasily Geranin] How many minutes ago? [bezler] About 30 minutes ago. Second recording [Male voice, captioned as "The Greek" ] Yes, Major. [Major] Well, the Chernukhino lads shot down the plane. [Greek] Who shot it down? [Major] From the Chernukhino roadblock. The Cossacks at Chernukhino. [Greek] Yes, Major. [Major] Well, the plane fell apart in the air, near the Pertropavlovskaya coal mine. The first casualty 200 [military jargon for dead body] has been found. A civilian. [Greek] Well, what do you have there? [Major] Basically it was 100% a civilian aircraft. [Greek] Are many people there? [Major] [Curses] The debris fell right into backyard. [Greek] What kind of aircraft? [Major] I have not figured this out yet because I haven't been close to the main body of the debris. I am only looking where the first bodies began to fall. There are the remnants of inner brackets, chairs and bodies there. [Greek] I see. Any weaponry there? [Major] Nothing at all. Civilian things, medical bits and bobs, towels, toilet paper. [Greek] Any documents? [Major] Yes. From an Indonesian student. From Thompson University [curses]. Third recording [Male voice, identified as a fighter] Regarding the plane shot down in the area of Snezhnoye-Torez. It's a civilian one. Fell down near Grabovo. There are lots of corpses of women and children. The Cossacks are out there looking at all this. They say on TV it's a Ukrainian AN-26 transport plane, but they say it's got Malaysia Airlines written on the plane. What was it doing in Ukrainian territory? [Male voice, identified as Cossack commander Nikolai Kozitsyn] That means they were carrying spies. They shouldn't be [curses] flying. There is a war going on. :-| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 So as it stands, it sounds like some army surplus clad, flag waving deadheads in a field, armed with a surface to air missile, have snuffed out the lives of 300 innocent airline passengers... :-S My middle daughter and her hubby have just flown back from the UAE(where they are now living)and they flew into Amsterdam. Now I'm guessing that their flight path wouldn't have taken them near Ukraine..but they would've probably flown over the likes of northern Iraq and possibly clipped Syria...? So this does make us very concerned! :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archiesgrandad Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 I wonder if this will become an opportunity for Mr Putin to gain a little more understanding of the Law of Unintended Consequences? I do hope so. AGD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelly58 Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 Very graphic images of the crash site you have been warned . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patricia Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 One of my grand-daughters flew that route on Monday 14th eastwards with Singapore Airlines. Hopefully they have changed their route for the return journey. What I found amazing was that with all the "improved security levels" there were originally 4 people "unknown" on the plane. Why unknown? Originally 6 Britons, then 9, then 10, and today I am reading that at least one man on the plane had his wife and 3 children with him. So what happened to the count unless she was travelling on a foreign national passport? Some of these people (the perpetrators ?) sound like savages - would we really have wanted them in the EU? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archiesgrandad Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 No, we should not want to invite such people to join our union. Not since the last century has there been such vile and despicable acts involving so many innocent victims, except, of course, Germany, Spain, Italy, Serbia, Kosovo, Bosnia etc., and that's only during my lifetime. AGD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 Patricia - 2014-07-19 7:34 PM Some of these people (the perpetrators ?) sound like savages - would we really have wanted them in the EU? As things stand there is very little chance of 'these people' joining the EU and all the protesting, indignation, and antagonism towards the perpetrators by some of the rest of the world is not going to change what has happened. At best it was a tragic accident and at worst it was deliberate and I tend to suspect the former, but the best way to change attitudes and behaviour is to have former enemies working together, each for their own good as much as the common good - as with the EU - well mostly. The EU seems to have worked well so far for the former warring nations of Europe and maybe if both Russia and Ukraine had been EU members this might not have occurred in the first place. Persuading Mr Putin to show some integrity and accept any form of responsibility or influence would possibly do him and his country more good than harm in the eyes of the rest of the world but it is debatable whether that will ever happen or whether he will sit it out until the next world disaster when the eyes of the world's media will quickly move on? So maybe we should be inviting the Russians to join the EU instead of driving them further apart with antagonistitic rhetoric as carrots generally work better than big sticks as incentives go? But what do I know, I'm just a simple country boy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 Tracker - 2014-07-20 1:56 PM At best it was a tragic accident and at worst it was deliberate and I tend to suspect the former, Quite possibly the former Rich, as I suspect the missile system was being operated by people with little or no training *-).......................which again points the finger at the rebels and Putin :-|.............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 I don't see how anyone can describe this as an " accident " If you aim a missile at a plane - hit it -and bring it down, that is a deliberate act. IF you discover afterwards that you have hit the wrong plane, that may be construed as a " ghastly mistake " - but it's certainly no accident. :-| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 malc d - 2014-07-20 5:00 PM I don't see how anyone can describe this as an " accident " If you aim a missile at a plane - hit it -and bring it down, that is a deliberate act. IF you discover afterwards that you have hit the wrong plane, that may be construed as a " ghastly mistake " - but it's certainly no accident. :-| Back in the day (mid 70's) when I did my training as a radar operator in Er madges navy ;-).................there was this thing called IFF, which stood for Identification Friend or Foe, which basically mean't every aircraft civilian or military had its own unique ID which would show on your radar screen............ I suspect that who ever Putin gave his Buk missile system too, was unaware of this and merely saw a contact and a vapour trail :-| Alternatively the Ukrainians shot it down in an Machiavellian attempt to blacken the name of Putin :-S.............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Collings Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Whoever hit the button or ordered it is probably now such a liability that they have already been "vanished" to prevent the possibility of ever being brought to trial and the truth coming to light. Dead men tell no tales. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogerC Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 pelmetman - 2014-07-20 5:43 PMmalc d - 2014-07-20 5:00 PMI don't see how anyone can describe this as an " accident "If you aim a missile at a plane - hit it -and bring it down, that is a deliberate act.IF you discover afterwards that you have hit the wrong plane, that may be construed as a " ghastly mistake " - but it's certainly no accident. :-|Back in the day (mid 70's) when I did my training as a radar operator in Er madges navy ;-).................there was this thing called IFF, which stood for Identification Friend or Foe, which basically mean't every aircraft civilian or military had its own unique ID which would show on your radar screen............I suspect that who ever Putin gave his Buk missile system too, was unaware of this and merely saw a contact and a vapour trail :-|Alternatively the Ukrainians shot it down in an Machiavellian attempt to blacken the name of Putin :-S.............. In addition to the comments by pelmetman....I was in the other 'blue' uniform of Her Maj's RAF flying C130 for 18 years then as ops/project manager on Antonov aircraft for a Ukranian cargo outfit and I can confirm that IFF codes are still very much in use. This 'shoot down' was no accident. The missile system requires properly 'trained' personnel not trained monkeys to operate and launch. Ergo the question as pm said is: Did the Russians 'assist' in the operation to shoot down this a/c? or: Did the Ukrainians shoot it down in a despicable attempt to 'confound' public opinion over the political/military situation in eastern Ukraine? Whatever the answer the result is the same and innocent people have been murdered and it is sickening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capcloser Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 Sister flew over same area same day on return from Australia with hubby,twins and hubbys parents,my mum was in bits over what might have happened,half the family gone in an instant.I agree a tragic accident caused by untrained guys having access to sophisticated weaponry,partner just said they were given it and just had to fire it at something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 capcloser - 2014-07-23 3:39 PM I agree a tragic accident , . Correction - it was NOT an accident. :-| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 malc d - 2014-07-23 3:57 PM capcloser - 2014-07-23 3:39 PM I agree a tragic accident , . Correction - it was NOT an accident. :-| Maybe accident is the wrong word Malc, but given that the rebels posted on social media that they'd thought they'd shot down a transport plane (then deleting it), tends to give credence to the incompetence theory............... Perhaps unintentional?...........but what ever label is put on it............makes b*gger all difference to the victims..............as I suspect the 100's of thousands of victims of Blairs illegal war or the latest civilians victims in the Gaza Strip would testify...................If they could :-| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 pelmetman - 2014-07-23 6:03 PM malc d - 2014-07-23 3:57 PM capcloser - 2014-07-23 3:39 PM I agree a tragic accident , . Correction - it was NOT an accident. :-| Maybe accident is the wrong word Malc, but given that the rebels posted on social media that they'd thought they'd shot down a transport plane (then deleting it), tends to give credence to the incompetence theory............... Sorry but I just get a bit fed up with people giving these killers some excuse. IF one of them slipped on a banana skin, hit his head on the trigger mechanism, and it released a missile - ---- THAT may be called an accident. If you get hold a a missile launcher , whose sole purpose is to shoot down aircraft, then you track a plane, then you pull the trigger ( or press the button ) and an aircraft is shot down, that is a deliberate act - not an accident. The intention is to kill people. If afterwards, you find out that you have shot down the wrong plane, and killed the wrong people, it could be said that they made a " ghastly mistake " - but don't try to kid anyone that it was " accidental ". I consider that is 'spin' at its' very worst. :-| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 malc d - 2014-07-23 8:11 PM I consider that is 'spin' at its' very worst. :-| We're singing from the same song sheet Malc ;-)............Spin or to use more forthright terms.................."corruption of the truth to fit the agenda of those who wish to pervert the truth" *-)..........and I didn't cut and paste.............that is my opinion of what spin means ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capcloser Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 Certainly not trying to excuse them ,it was murder pure and simple,just meant they killed the wrong people Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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